The Auto-Sleeper Motorhome Owners Forum (ASOF)
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

up-plating a Broadway

+3
road warrior
Caraman
gbrchill
7 posters

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Go down

up-plating a Broadway Empty up-plating a Broadway

Post by gbrchill Sat May 04, 2024 8:30 pm

I am writing this to document what I have tried and the problems that I have encountered, so that someone in the future may be better informed, should they stumble across this when doing initial investigation.

I have been thinking of up plating our 2016 Broadway EK LT. We bought it last year and knew it would need new tyres, which I wanted to get done before we go away later in the year. I contacted Van Weight Engineering and got back a really helpful response about the possible paths forward.

My plan was to go from the stock 15" (5x118 PCD) alloys to 16" rims and then put higher load rated tyres on them and then invest in semi-air suspension on the rear axle. Being a cheapskate I stated looking at steel rims, half the price of alloys. The company I contacted assured me that the rims were rated to 1250Kg. However, once these rims were delivered they were not able to provide any official documentation to back this rating up and the rims did not have any markings either. So, back the rims had to go. I then bit the bullet and ordered alloys from RogueAlloys. These arrived and had the load rating stamped on the back so all was well. However, things started to go wrong when our local tyre fitter tried to get the tyres on. First up was a 225/75R16 tyre, but it caught on the rear wheel arch. Then they tried the 225/65R16, which were not quite as tall. They fitted in the rear wheel arch, after removing a little bit of the forward wheel arch to get the clearence. However, the front tyres were a little too exposed for me to be happy. Looking down from the maximum flare of the wing the tread was covered but the bottom of the arch was further in and not covering the tread. Not an MOT fail but possibly an interesting conversation with a VOSA inspector being picky. Also, the spare wouldn't fit in the space infront of the waste water tank.

Interestingly, the amount of rear wheel arch that needed to be nibbled away was different from side to side - so the coach built body is not sitting squarely on the chassis.

So, having travelled home from the tyre fitting minus the spare and thinking about it over the weekend I decided to go back to the 15" alloys. I have been able to return the 16" alloys, big debt of gratitude to Rogue Alloys. So, that just leaves me with the 16" tyres, now on the classified area of the forum.

I hope my journey towards and back from bigger wheels may help someone else wanting to travel along the same path.
gbrchill
gbrchill
Donator
Donator

Male

Posts : 52
Joined : 2023-06-09
Location : Southampton
Auto-Sleeper : Broadeway EK LT
Vehicle Year : 2016

Back to top Go down

up-plating a Broadway Empty Re: up-plating a Broadway

Post by Caraman Sun May 05, 2024 8:05 am

Why didn't you just replace your 215/70 R15 109/107R tyres with 225/70 R15 112/110R Michelin Crossclimate Camper tyres, which I am planing to do later this year?  They have the same higher load index as the R16 tyres you bought and will fit your existing R15 rims. Was it because you really wanted to fit the 225/75 R16 116/114 Camper tyre?

109 gives a theoretical max axle mass of 2060 kg but it is recommended not to exceed 90% of this = 1854 kg
112 gives a theoretical max axle mass of 2240 kg but it is recommended not to exceed 90% of this = 2016 kg
116 gives a theoretical max axle mass of 2500 kg but it is recommended not to exceed 90% of this = 2250 kg

I am surprised Van Weight Engineering didn't tell you to confirm with the Converter that R16 wheels/tyres would fit the Broadway.  What advice did they give about the increase in rolling circumference which would make the speedometer and odometer under read?
Caraman
Caraman
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 3474
Joined : 2019-04-19
Location : SALISBURY
Auto-Sleeper : Nuevo
Vehicle Year : 2019

Back to top Go down

up-plating a Broadway Empty Re: up-plating a Broadway

Post by gbrchill Sun May 05, 2024 12:20 pm

The main piece of advice was that the stock 15" alloys would not have the load capacity and that to increase that one would need to go to a higher load rating on the alloy (and the tyre). I looked around for higher rated 15" alloys and didn't find much. Whereas there were loads of higher rated 16" alloys. I was well aware of the increased rolling circumfrence - my computations base on observing the GPS speed and displayed speed was that the speedo is about 9% fast so bigger tyres would have made the displayed speed more accurate and be OK provided you don't make the speedo under read.
gbrchill
gbrchill
Donator
Donator

Male

Posts : 52
Joined : 2023-06-09
Location : Southampton
Auto-Sleeper : Broadeway EK LT
Vehicle Year : 2016

Back to top Go down

up-plating a Broadway Empty Re: up-plating a Broadway

Post by Caraman Sun May 05, 2024 1:40 pm

Thanks.  So you are back to your original 15" alloys which I guess are the same as mine.  Do you know what their load rating is?

There is a thread from a year or so ago about someone who up-plated their coachbuilt - I think is was a Broadway - by just increasing the load index of their R15 tyres from 109 to 112.  I don't know what rear axle MTPLM it gave them but it had to be more than 2000 kg as far as I can remember to accommodate a towbar and towbar mounted bike rack with e-bikes.
Caraman
Caraman
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 3474
Joined : 2019-04-19
Location : SALISBURY
Auto-Sleeper : Nuevo
Vehicle Year : 2019

Back to top Go down

up-plating a Broadway Empty Re: up-plating a Broadway

Post by gbrchill Sun May 05, 2024 3:27 pm

Yes, back on the stock 15" alloys. I had a quick look at the back of the alloys when they were off but couldn't see any load marking through all of the accumulated dirt and grime. I won't be taking one off to give it a clean up and a better look. It will have to wait until I get a puncture and need to.
gbrchill
gbrchill
Donator
Donator

Male

Posts : 52
Joined : 2023-06-09
Location : Southampton
Auto-Sleeper : Broadeway EK LT
Vehicle Year : 2016

Back to top Go down

up-plating a Broadway Empty Re: up-plating a Broadway

Post by Caraman Mon May 06, 2024 9:30 am

gbrchill wrote:Yes, back on the stock 15" alloys. I had a quick look at the back of the alloys when they were off but couldn't see any load marking through all of the accumulated dirt and grime. I won't be taking one off to give it a clean up and a better look. It will have to wait until I get a puncture and need to.
If you go to a Peugeot dealer with a photo of your current R15 alloys and your VIN they should be able to tell you their load rating.  I doubt it will be less than 1200kg and could even be the same as the R16s you bought and returned if they were 1250kg.
Caraman
Caraman
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 3474
Joined : 2019-04-19
Location : SALISBURY
Auto-Sleeper : Nuevo
Vehicle Year : 2019

gbrchill likes this post

Back to top Go down

up-plating a Broadway Empty Re: up-plating a Broadway

Post by road warrior Tue May 07, 2024 11:26 am

I notice you had the wheelarch problem, as mentioned its a little late for you but perhaps we can save some grief for someone else.  You can fit and remove 16" wheels and alloys ( i have 235/65/16 standard alloys and tyres )  by one simple method   - the jack needs to go under and lift at the end of the leaf spring. It is the only way you will clear the wheel enough without damaging or god forbid removing any archway. be sure to specify this to garage tyre fitters as they will be quite sure they know best allthumbz
road warrior
road warrior
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 53
Joined : 2022-07-11
Location : BURTON ON TRENT
Auto-Sleeper : WINCHCOMBE
Vehicle Year : 2016

Peter Brown likes this post

Back to top Go down

up-plating a Broadway Empty Re: up-plating a Broadway

Post by Caraman Tue May 07, 2024 12:24 pm

I've just called in at my local Peugeot dealer.  Whilst they can identify the vehicle and its spec on their system, it doesn't tell them the load rating of the 15 inch alloy wheel Peugeot supplied.  For that they say I must remove the wheel and look on the inside.  Its a nice day and my wheels are off the ground on my self-levelling system so I'll take a wheel off this afternoon to see what it says.
Caraman
Caraman
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 3474
Joined : 2019-04-19
Location : SALISBURY
Auto-Sleeper : Nuevo
Vehicle Year : 2019

Back to top Go down

up-plating a Broadway Empty Re: up-plating a Broadway

Post by gbrchill Tue May 07, 2024 2:13 pm

road warrior wrote:I notice you had the wheelarch problem, as mentioned its a little late for you but perhaps we can save some grief for someone else.  You can fit and remove 16" wheels and alloys ( i have 235/65/16 standard alloys and tyres )  by one simple method   - the jack needs to go under and lift at the end of the leaf spring. It is the only way you will clear the wheel enough without damaging or god forbid removing any archway. be sure to specify this to garage tyre fitters as they will be quite sure they know best allthumbz
The fitter got the wheel on the rear axle OK, but the clearence to the front edge of the wheel arch, where the moulding turns the corner and transitions from vertical to horizontal, was not good enough. By trimmimg the horizontal edge back a bit enough clerance was gained.
gbrchill
gbrchill
Donator
Donator

Male

Posts : 52
Joined : 2023-06-09
Location : Southampton
Auto-Sleeper : Broadeway EK LT
Vehicle Year : 2016

Back to top Go down

up-plating a Broadway Empty Re: up-plating a Broadway

Post by gbrchill Tue May 07, 2024 2:16 pm

Caraman wrote:I've just called in at my local Peugeot dealer.  Whilst they can identify the vehicle and its spec on their system, it doesn't tell them the load rating of the 15 inch alloy wheel Peugeot supplied.  For that they say I must remove the wheel and look on the inside.  Its a nice day and my wheels are off the ground on my self-levelling system so I'll take a wheel off this afternoon to see what it says.

I think it would be good to have this information recorded for future owners to discover. As the standard fit tyre is a 109 I would expect that the rims had a similar load capacity. If you find the load markings on the rim could you post a picture, as that is the kind of evidence that possibly needs to be presented when justifying up plating beyond the base chassis plate.

:) Chris.
gbrchill
gbrchill
Donator
Donator

Male

Posts : 52
Joined : 2023-06-09
Location : Southampton
Auto-Sleeper : Broadeway EK LT
Vehicle Year : 2016

Back to top Go down

up-plating a Broadway Empty Re: up-plating a Broadway

Post by gbrchill Tue May 07, 2024 2:58 pm

These are the stock alloys that I have:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
gbrchill
gbrchill
Donator
Donator

Male

Posts : 52
Joined : 2023-06-09
Location : Southampton
Auto-Sleeper : Broadeway EK LT
Vehicle Year : 2016

Back to top Go down

up-plating a Broadway Empty Re: up-plating a Broadway

Post by Caraman Tue May 07, 2024 3:43 pm

Chris,

Just had the wheel off and cleaned it.  There are markings on it but nothing that indicated to me the load rating so I took it into the Peugeot dealer so they could look at it.  They also couldn't identify any load markings so they are submitting a technical query to Peugeot.  When and if I get a reply I'll post it here.  It did say made in Turkey!

Taking a wheel off a Boxer is not for the faint hearted.  First loosen the bolts which may be stiff.  Then you have the problem with jacking made easier for me with levelling jacks.  If the wheel hasn't been off for a while it may be stuck on the back plate and need a heavy blow with a long piece of wood on the inside of the rim.  To refit remove the Peugeot cap in the centre of the wheel and then lift and centralise the wheel on the bolt holes and hub nut which isn't easy as the wheel is heavy.  Then refit and tighten the bolts by hand.  Take off the jack and finish off by torquing the nuts to 160 Nm and refitting the Peugeot centre cap.

Like you I am interested to know the relationship between the max wheel load and the max tyre load (109-1030kg or 112-1120kg) and the max axle load (1850kg front and 2000kg rear).  From your perspective I feel sure there is scope with your current wheels but with 112 rated tyres to up-plate the rear axle a bit (perhaps with semi-air assisted rear suspension) but don't know by how much.

I now have one sparkly clean wheel and three not so sparkly so now I've got to decide whether to resist my OCD tendency or clean all of them!  My tyres will be 6 years old this autumn and although they have oodles of tread left I am concerned at fine cracks between the treads and my 5 year MOT at the end of the month.  The garage assured me that the cracks should not fail the MOT smile!

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Caraman
Caraman
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 3474
Joined : 2019-04-19
Location : SALISBURY
Auto-Sleeper : Nuevo
Vehicle Year : 2019

Back to top Go down

up-plating a Broadway Empty Re: up-plating a Broadway

Post by Plymouthwelshboy Tue May 07, 2024 7:18 pm

We upplated our Broadway due to the towbar and ebikes issue. Our MAM is 4090kg. Front axle is 1850. Rear axle is 2240kg. We added semi air bags on rear suspension. We upgraded our tyres ..  OEM alloy 15" to 225/70/R15 112.  All sorted by vanq weight engineering. Been no problems whatsoever and far better ride and handling. Tyres were Michelin agilis three season if I remember correctly . Steve
Plymouthwelshboy
Plymouthwelshboy
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 274
Joined : 2020-10-15
Location : Plymouth
Auto-Sleeper : Broadway EB 2019
Vehicle Year : 2019

Caraman likes this post

Back to top Go down

up-plating a Broadway Empty Re: up-plating a Broadway

Post by Caraman Tue May 07, 2024 8:06 pm

So they have raised the max axle mass for the rear axle to 2 x the maximum permitted load of the 112 tyre.  For that the max wheel load must be at least 1120 kg but I reckon it's more than that even though the largest tyre it can take has a 112 load index.  Personally I would not load a rear axle to 2240 kg if it only had 112 tyres because the load will not be split equally between the two tyres.  One will be under 1120 kg and the other will be overloaded.
Caraman
Caraman
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 3474
Joined : 2019-04-19
Location : SALISBURY
Auto-Sleeper : Nuevo
Vehicle Year : 2019

Back to top Go down

up-plating a Broadway Empty Re: up-plating a Broadway

Post by Plymouthwelshboy Wed May 08, 2024 7:11 am

Caravan ... An weight engineering did the figures and recommendations. The DVLA approved the conversion. The i surance  company have all the details. We've driven over 8000 miles now without event. I dont think the rear axle is loaded anywhere near close to that. When we originally did all this we were 60kg above the 3.5 T and around 30kg over rear axle weight fully laden with water fuel and what we carry. Only a 6.3m moho there isn't the space for anything and we don't carry huge amounts other than some astronomy gear and that is well forward by front seats. I will however go back to van weight engineering and check because your advice and knowledge has always been spot on before and you've helped us as newbies many times before. When I get some answers I'll come back to you. I'll also talk to our local moho workshop which has just opened. They are very knowledgeable...a group of five or six who have left a national dealership to get up their own business. Anyway will get back to you when we have answers
Plymouthwelshboy
Plymouthwelshboy
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 274
Joined : 2020-10-15
Location : Plymouth
Auto-Sleeper : Broadway EB 2019
Vehicle Year : 2019

Back to top Go down

up-plating a Broadway Empty Re: up-plating a Broadway

Post by Bilbobaggins Wed May 08, 2024 8:13 am

Have you checked axle weights on a weighbridge since up plating?, everything you describe is theoretical.

_________________
Nil carborundum illigitimi.
Bilbobaggins
Bilbobaggins
Donator
Donator

Male

Posts : 1707
Joined : 2020-07-09
Location : Angus
Auto-Sleeper : Warwick xl
Vehicle Year : 2014

Back to top Go down

up-plating a Broadway Empty Re: up-plating a Broadway

Post by Caraman Wed May 08, 2024 8:15 am

Plymouthwelshboy wrote:Caravan ... An weight engineering did the figures and recommendations. The DVLA approved the conversion. The i surance  company have all the details. We've driven over 8000 miles now without event. I dont think the rear axle is loaded anywhere near close to that. When we originally did all this we were 60kg above the 3.5 T and around 30kg over rear axle weight fully laden with water fuel and what we carry. Only a 6.3m moho there isn't the space for anything and we don't carry huge amounts other than some astronomy gear and that is well forward by front seats. I will however go back to van weight engineering and check because your advice and knowledge has always been spot on before and you've helped us as newbies many times before. When I get some answers I'll come back to you. I'll also talk to our local moho workshop which has just opened. They are very knowledgeable...a group of five or six who have left a national dealership to get up their own business. Anyway will get back to you when we have answers
I think all they will say is that it is the driver's responsibility to ensure that his load is equally spread across the axles and on any one tyre doesn't exceeds its load index limit.  It is very difficult if not impossible for a motorhome driver to ensure this if his axle mass is close to the combined maximum load of each tyre.  This is why TyreSafe and the UK tyre industry recommend that an axle mass does not exceed 90% of the combined maximum load of each tyre which for a 112 tyre works out at 2016 kg and for a 109 tyre 1854 kg.  Peugeot ignored this advice when they set the maximum rear axle mass at 2000 kg and only fitted 109 tyres.  I would also argue that given the condition of our roads its not a good idea to load a tyre to its maximum permitted load.
Caraman
Caraman
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 3474
Joined : 2019-04-19
Location : SALISBURY
Auto-Sleeper : Nuevo
Vehicle Year : 2019

Back to top Go down

up-plating a Broadway Empty Re: up-plating a Broadway

Post by Plymouthwelshboy Wed May 08, 2024 8:36 am

Don't disagree with that at all. I looked ours up 112Q tyres. Anyway I'll go investigate and also stick it on the local weigh station when next loaded up ready to go. Be interesting to see what emerges from.my enquiries
Plymouthwelshboy
Plymouthwelshboy
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 274
Joined : 2020-10-15
Location : Plymouth
Auto-Sleeper : Broadway EB 2019
Vehicle Year : 2019

Shortsrv likes this post

Back to top Go down

up-plating a Broadway Empty Re: up-plating a Broadway

Post by road warrior Wed May 08, 2024 4:26 pm

caraman, can i suggest you put some grease on the back of the wheel where it bolts to the hub and you wont find it so hard to separate next time. allthumbz
road warrior
road warrior
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 53
Joined : 2022-07-11
Location : BURTON ON TRENT
Auto-Sleeper : WINCHCOMBE
Vehicle Year : 2016

Back to top Go down

up-plating a Broadway Empty Re: up-plating a Broadway

Post by Caraman Wed May 08, 2024 5:00 pm

road warrior wrote:caraman, can i suggest you put some grease on the back of the wheel where it bolts to the hub and you wont find it so hard to separate next time. allthumbz
Spot on.  The first time I took all my wheels off they were nearly all stuck so I did what you have suggested.  Yesterday I forgot to replace the grease so will probably pay the price the next time I take it off.
Caraman
Caraman
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 3474
Joined : 2019-04-19
Location : SALISBURY
Auto-Sleeper : Nuevo
Vehicle Year : 2019

Back to top Go down

up-plating a Broadway Empty Re: up-plating a Broadway

Post by gbrchill Thu May 09, 2024 10:09 am

Caraman wrote:
Spot on.  The first time I took all my wheels off they were nearly all stuck so I did what you have suggested.  Yesterday I forgot to replace the grease so will probably pay the price the next time I take it off.
They do look beautifully clean though. Perhaps you could offer this as a service to other owners...   [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
gbrchill
gbrchill
Donator
Donator

Male

Posts : 52
Joined : 2023-06-09
Location : Southampton
Auto-Sleeper : Broadeway EK LT
Vehicle Year : 2016

Caraman likes this post

Back to top Go down

up-plating a Broadway Empty Re: up-plating a Broadway

Post by gbrchill Thu May 09, 2024 10:14 am

Plymouthwelshboy wrote:Caravan ... Van weight engineering did the figures and recommendations. The DVLA approved the conversion. The i surance  company have all the details. We've driven over 8000 miles now without event.

The advice I had from VanWeight Engineering was that 15" 112 tyres would need new alloys with a higher load weight than the stock alloys. That is why I decided to go for 16" alloys and initially tyres with an even higher load index. I think it will be most informative to see what the load weight limits are for the stock alloys.
gbrchill
gbrchill
Donator
Donator

Male

Posts : 52
Joined : 2023-06-09
Location : Southampton
Auto-Sleeper : Broadeway EK LT
Vehicle Year : 2016

Back to top Go down

up-plating a Broadway Empty Re: up-plating a Broadway

Post by gbrchill Thu May 09, 2024 10:17 am

As the OP I would like to say thank you to all of the participants on this thread, particularly caraman and his wheel cleaning dedication. Hopefully we will uncover enough information to help out anyone else that is looking to tread the up-plating path in the future.
gbrchill
gbrchill
Donator
Donator

Male

Posts : 52
Joined : 2023-06-09
Location : Southampton
Auto-Sleeper : Broadeway EK LT
Vehicle Year : 2016

Back to top Go down

up-plating a Broadway Empty Re: up-plating a Broadway

Post by Caraman Thu May 09, 2024 10:39 am

No problem.  As I'm planning to fit 112 tyres to my existing 15" alloys it will be reassuring to know that the wheel's load rating is at least 1120 kg which is all it needs to be as there is no R15 van tyre above 112 that I know of.  There is plenty of on-line anecdotal evidence of a 112 tyre being used with the 15" wheel, including from Plymouthwelshboy, so I have no doubts the wheel is suitable.

As Plymouthwelshboy has had his rear axle up-plated to 2240 kg with the 15" wheel and 112 tyre, I wonder if its possible to have it up-plated to 2060 kg with the original 109 tyre?  Of course the 112 tyre route is infinitely preferable noting concerns at running tyres at, close or above their maximum permitted load.
Caraman
Caraman
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 3474
Joined : 2019-04-19
Location : SALISBURY
Auto-Sleeper : Nuevo
Vehicle Year : 2019

Back to top Go down

up-plating a Broadway Empty Re: up-plating a Broadway

Post by Zola Fri May 17, 2024 5:39 am

HI Just completed my up plate on a Broadway Duo and used Van Weight Engineering to do the paperwork. They were very helpful and a small one man band company, They overcame a few little issues with no bother. I have now have plenty of payload and they managed to get the van to 4250KG. I did all the modifications like fit the Drive rite semi air suspension and had new 16inch wheels and tyres from Rogue Alloys. I have upgraded the front springs which was not necessary but i wanted a nicer ride and also it lifted the front end by 30mm. Easy process and not a big deal if you need more payload. If you need any data on the equipment i used just message me.
Zola
Zola
New Member
New Member

Male

Posts : 2
Joined : 2024-02-22
Location : Ibstock
Auto-Sleeper : Broadway Duo
Vehicle Year : 2013

Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum