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2016 Nuevo external Whale filler

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Monty-Plym
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2016 Nuevo external Whale filler Empty 2016 Nuevo external Whale filler

Post by alfa_scud Tue Apr 02, 2024 1:27 pm

Not sure if this has been a problem since new or not as I've never tried it....but we've just been away for a few days on a muddy field so rather than drive to the tap, I thought I'd give the Whale filler a go with a bucket of water, but it won't fill the tank.

The control is the EC328, and whether or not I select "Tank Fill", as soon as I plug in the submersible pump it starts to run. However, there is no "click" or anything from the solenoid under the seat which I'm guessing "opens" to fill the tank. This is problem 1 and I can't see which of the 3 relays next it pulls the solenoid as the wire colours don't match....

Bearing this in mind, I took the solenoid assembly off and water pumped into a jug fine from the fill point, so I know that's working. BUT it won't pump water into the fresh tank. I disconnected the pipe and blew down it and it doesn't seem to be an open pipe, there was a fair bit of back pressure in it before my "blow" freed it so I guess this is also what's stopping the tank filling - is there a second valve/solenoid that opens when using the external filler or does anyone have any idea what could be causing this?
  

Many Thanks
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2016 Nuevo external Whale filler Empty Re: 2016 Nuevo external Whale filler

Post by Monty-Plym Tue Apr 02, 2024 1:42 pm

What colour is the autofill icon on your control panel?

Take a look at this post https://www.autosleeper-ownersforum.com/t43705-whale-watermaster#398777

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Post by Peter Brown Tue Apr 02, 2024 1:46 pm

select EXT or BOTH pumps on the EC328 - I always use both.  Switch on the EC328 control panel then, when the external pump is connected to the van, the pump should operate and the solenoid (motorised valve or tap) just inside the filler point will stay open and pass water until the ball valve in the fresh water tank operates the relay that closes the solenoid and stops water flow.

In the casing of the solenoid unit is a water filter that is easily blocked and prevents water flow irrespective - remove the solenoid unit and clean the filter.

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2016 Nuevo external Whale filler Empty Re: 2016 Nuevo external Whale filler

Post by alfa_scud Tue Apr 02, 2024 1:50 pm

Monty-Plym wrote:What colour is the autofill icon on your control panel?

Take a look at this post https://www.autosleeper-ownersforum.com/t43705-whale-watermaster#398777

Yea I read that topic 1st as I thought it may be the same issue....but mine is the old style panel, just LCD with the up/down arrows etc. So I just scroll to "Tank Fill" and press the "enter" key....but it doesn't seem to matter if I select that or not, the Whale runs as soon as it's connected to the fill point.

Cheers
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Post by alfa_scud Tue Apr 02, 2024 1:57 pm

Thanks Peter, I've actually taken off the motorised valve (solenoid) as it's not operating and water does flow from the filler, but it won't flow into the tank, really confusing. It's as if there's a blockage/second valve somewhere between that motorised valve and the tank which is preventing the free flow of water.

Cheers
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Post by Peter Brown Tue Apr 02, 2024 2:48 pm

As you can see from the Whale autofill diagram, there is only the one valve as standard, could the system have been modified?

In many cases the gravity fill point was fitted after sale so its possible that the Whale fill connection to the fresh water tank was disconnected during that process?
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Post by alfa_scud Tue Apr 02, 2024 2:57 pm

Peter Brown wrote:As you can see from the Whale autofill diagram, there is only the one valve as standard, could the system have been modified?  

In many cases the gravity fill point was fitted after sale so its possible that the Whale fill connection to the fresh water tank was disconnected during that process?

Yes it's certainly a strange one; we've had the van from new so everything is unmodified from original supply. 
Seeing the diagram certainly reassures me that there isn't a second valve, so there must be a kink/blockage in the pipe between the solenoid valve and the tank.
It doesn't solve the issue of the solenoid not working in the 1st place but I've got something to work with at least.
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Post by Peter Brown Tue Apr 02, 2024 2:59 pm

Because of the relatively high current taken by the solenoid, their is a relay to operate it, the relay being controlled by the ball valve.  There will be one stand alone relay in a base somewhere near the fill plumbing.

I think this is a picture of one:


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Post by alfa_scud Tue Apr 02, 2024 3:21 pm

There are 3 relays mounted in the same area as I mentioned, just can't suss out which one is supposed to be firing the valve, as there's no clicking from any of them, and the wire colours seem to differ, all very odd.....I'll have another look and see if I can get any voltages from any of them.
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Post by Peter Brown Tue Apr 02, 2024 3:47 pm

I've just taken these in my Broadway, the relay is at the other side of the combi to the solenoid.

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Post by alfa_scud Tue Apr 02, 2024 6:07 pm

think mine is setup slightly differently; still cant see which relay does what other than the one on RHS clicks when i turn on the main control panel so that's ruled out. Doesn't matter if I swap out the other two, nothing changes.
 
I've run a pipe direct from the inside of the external connector to the tank fill pipe. With the "tank fill" option on the control panel off, still no water flows (although the watermaster still runs), but if "tank fill" is on, water flows if the pipe isn't connected to the fitting on the floor...however, as soon as that pipe is connected nothing flows through it. 


Again, I've really blown through it, but it almost feels like i'm blowing a balloon up, and can feel a bit of "blowback" when I stop blowing. But I can't hear bubbling, so I don't think the pipe is submerged in the water tank, very odd.


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2016 Nuevo external Whale filler Empty Re: 2016 Nuevo external Whale filler

Post by Caraman Tue Apr 02, 2024 6:14 pm

Peter in his initial post said "until the ball valve in the fresh water tank operates the relay that closes the solenoid and stops water flow."

This is correct when the Whale inlet socket is connected to a mains water supply that is constantly on.  The ball valve switch operates the relay which stops power going to the Whale inlet socket and therefore, even though the Whale inlet socket pressure switch is closed due to the mains water pressure, power to the solenoid valve is cut which causes the valve to shut thus stopping the flow of mains water.  

When a Whale pump is connected, the ball valve switch operates the relay which stops power going to the Whale inlet socket which stops the pump pumping and it is this that stops the water flow.  The solenoid valve will close because there is no power going to the Whale inlet socket but that's almost incidental when the pump is connected.

As has been mentioned, the gauze filter which protects the solenoid valve is notorious for clogging up but if the Whale inlet socket has never been used, the filter shouldn't be clogged.  As the solenoid has now been removed and water still won't flow into the tank, it suggests there is a kink or major blockage in the pipe going to the fresh water tank.  Rather than run the Whale pump against this resistance which may damage it, it might be better to use the Whale mains water hose and plug to see if that will clear the blockage.

There is another theory worth examining and that is the pressure switch on the Whale inlet socket.  With care it can be dismantled from the outside of the Whale socket to check it is clean.  It can also be adjusted with the screw adjuster on its back which is shown in one of Peter's photos.  Although it says - do not adjust - the screw can safely be removed causing the pressure switch to close at the lowest pressure which should be beneficial for the Whale pump.  If the pressure is set too high or the Whale pump is old, the pump may run but not be able to generate enough pressure to close the pressure switch and therefore open the solenoid valve.
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Post by Cymro Tue Apr 02, 2024 6:23 pm

Goodness me, I'm glad I took the advice of the dealer when I ordered my Nuevo, and had a filling hole added at the side of the van. I simply stick the hosepipe in it, and that's it. Of course, it doesn't have the convenience of the Whale system when at a serviced pitch; indeed I still have the unused Whale kit in the garage. But it does strike me that it's almost an unnecessary development, given its potential for problems.

I also carry a plastic watering can!

All that aside, I hope you manage to sort out yours, Alfa_scud.

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Post by Molly3 Tue Apr 02, 2024 7:02 pm

I find the filler very temperamental I have to jiggle the pump up and down in the water container then  starts  pumping
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Post by Caraman Tue Apr 02, 2024 7:17 pm

You're right Cymro.  The Autofill is surprisingly complex but its not rocket science.  I've not used mine to permanently connect to a mains water supply on a serviced pitch and never would so I have removed the solenoid valve.  I can still fill the tank with the mains water hose through the Whale inlet socket (just as I can through the gravity filling hole) but when the tank is full, mains water will be forced out of the tank's breather.  I think it was Monty-Plym who warned that this can cause the fresh water tank to over-pressurise and cause one of the level sensors to pop out but this hasn't happened to me yet.  Filling through the gravity filling hole shouldn't have this problem as water will back up the filler pipe.  Removing the solenoid valve helps the external Whale pump when using a water barrel which I prefer to walking to and fro with a watering can or driving to a motorhome service point if one exists.
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2016 Nuevo external Whale filler Empty Re: 2016 Nuevo external Whale filler

Post by Monty-Plym Tue Apr 02, 2024 8:31 pm

alfa_scud wrote:
Again, I've really blown through it, but it almost feels like i'm blowing a balloon up, and can feel a bit of "blowback" when I stop blowing. But I can't hear bubbling, so I don't think the pipe is submerged in the water tank, very odd.
I'm just guessing but surely if this is the case then either:-

1. The pipe you are blowing down has a restriction, such as a internal submerged tank pump attached to it or it is kinked under the floor, or 
2. The tank has no vent path so you are trying to compress a fluid or an air pocket at the top of the tank.

Have you tried leaving a tap open when you try to fill the tank to see if the water flows with a vent path?

Water moves in mysterious ways

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Post by Monty-Plym Tue Apr 02, 2024 8:42 pm

Don't know if this helps, this is the wiring colour code for my Warwick XL, It is possibly the same for your rig.  Might help you identify the correct relay, Green paired with another colour is anything water related

RefPinDescriptionFuse NoFuse Rating (A)Wire ColourColour CodeNotes
E1
MNL 9 Way Socket (Natural)
1En Route1010Black/Red B/REn Route Heating
2
3
4Awning Light
Entrance Light
95Grey/RedS/RAwning Light x 1
Deckhead light above step x 1
5
6
7Plinth LightsGrey/YellowS/YPlinth Lights x 4
8
9
        
E2
MNL 12 Way Socket (Natural)
1Lights 187.5GreySBathroom x 2
Strip Lights x 2
2
3    
4    
5    
6    
7Lights 277.5PinkKCentral Isle x 3
Reading Lights x 4
8
9    
10    
11    
12    
E3
MNL 6 Way Socket (Natural)
1Internal Water Pump610Green/BlueG/USubmerged FW Pump
2
3FW Tank FillGreen/BlackG/BAuto FW Tank Fill Solenoid
4
5Tank HeatersGreen/PurpleG/PTank Heating Matts
FW & Grey
6
E4
MNL 12 Way Socket (Red)
1Appliances55Yellow/Green x 2Y/GCooker Ignition
2PurplePToilet Flush
3PurpleP
4Fan410Black/BlueB/UCooker Extractor
5   
6   
712V Sockets310Yellow/WhiteY/WBehind TV x 2
External socket x 1
8Yellow/WhiteY/W
9Yellow/WhiteY/W
10Tracker27.5Brown/RedN/R 
11Permanent 12VBrown/YellowN/YWiFi Supply
12    

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Post by Caraman Tue Apr 02, 2024 10:13 pm

Molly3 wrote:I find the filler very temperamental I have to jiggle the pump up and down in the water container then  starts  pumping
This temperamental behaviour is caused by an airlock in the pump which is exacerbated in Whale's autofill system because before the water can flow and release the airlock, the pump has to generate enough water pressure in the Whale inlet socket to close its pressure switch so the solenoid valve opens.  Jiggling the pump up and down helps as does removing the solenoid valve, especially if the valve's gauze filter is partially blocked and reducing flow.
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Post by Monty-Plym Thu Apr 04, 2024 5:09 pm

Hey Alfa_Scud, any update to the filling situation?   scratch head

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Post by alfa_scud Fri Apr 12, 2024 12:01 pm

Monty-Plym wrote:Hey Alfa_Scud, any update to the filling situation?   scratch head

Apologies, been away for a few days and didn't get chance to catch up in here!

To be honest for now I've just gone back to "sod it" and fill from the main filler. I'm pretty convinced there's some blockage or kink in the Whale filler pipe somewhere between where it goes through the floor and enters the tank, but it looks like a tank off job to check it, so for now it'll have to stay as it is..... as I say it must have been like that since we got the van new 8 years ago :o
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