AutoSleepers Quality Control Pt 3

So here we are again, another rant about quality.

My van is currently back in for repairs after the main control panel decided to stop working whilst on holiday and the main charger packed up leaving me with a dead vehicle battery whilst in the middle of nowhere on Mull. Now this is the 3rd holiday in 12 months I have had to cut short due to the vehicle electrics failing... so back of the dealer it went. Interestingly the 2nd time this happened AS said they replaced the control panel with the newest version and all of the Sargent Controller was also replaced, and yet here we are, same problem, different month.

So van is with dealer and the first thing they tell me is that the control panel is an old version, now bearing in mind this has been replaced once by the dealer and the last time by the factory who installed the latest version... or so they said.

I have asked the dealer to also sort out about 8+ other quality / fitment problems, and have sent them the list of the 30+ other items the factory are supposed to have repaired and have asked they all be 'checked'. Whilst they have the van I have asked that a paint repair be done to part of the back panel, but have asked that this does not go back to AS as they 'repaired' it previously and it's started to bubble once again in the same place.

To date this quality British product has led to 3 separate holidays being cut short and the van will have been in for it's various repairs for some 3 months out of the last 12... and the response from all involved, a shrug of the shoulders and a sorry... that's it. 

I have now put the dealer on notice that the if vehicle continues to not be 'fit for purpose', given all parties have tried to fix the various problems several times, and that if it's not working as it should with all quality issues rectified, I'll be rejecting the van and perusing a full refund / compensation. 

As much as I love my Broadway, I'm not prepared to accept that having spent north of 60k that this quality and reliability is something I can live with. If I had wanted Swift quality I would have brought a Swift!!

And finally, does anybody from AS actually read this forum? If so, they must hold their heads in shame, or they simply don't care, their strapline being 'A company like no other'... I could come up with others more apt!

Hi
   If it makes you feel any better, I have a new Burstner on a MB chassis and the laminate on the bathroom wall is coming off, my comment to the dealer , I did not think German quality MH's used double sided tape, their reply we use a better quality double sided tape.
Regards
Alan

It’s pretty dismal to put it mildly. With that track record of holiday disruption I think I’d be making an approach directly to AS’s CEO.

From other reports on here in recent years it seems AS have surrendered all responsibility for habitation electrics to Sargent, to such an extent that AS no longer have sufficient knowledge to hold their subcontractor’s feet to the fire.  One of the golden rules of procurement is that you should be an intelligent customer of your suppliers, otherwise they get the better of you, and AS have clearly failed to follow this.

Moreover, as reported by an adjacent thread originated by Wilksy, AS dig their hole even deeper by not bothering to even adequately  secure the EC700 panel to the bulkhead, nor pay much attention to cable management. It all points to the sad fact that quality is not what it should be and attention to detail beneath the attractive  finishes is skin deep. We are very happy with our Kemerton but would not be buying new given the growing list of recurring issues on AS’s vans. At the time we purchased it one of the workshop guys at the dealership, himself an ex AS employer, told me quietly that quality had steadily gone downhill at the Willersey factory and that our year of build (2015) was one of the last solid ones.

As for whether AS take note of this forum, judging by number of issues that repeatedly get reported on here year after year, they do not. I cannot believe they are ignorant about the existence of ASOF, it doesn’t take any effort to find online, but they have chosen to ignore the body of experience and generally objective feedback that exists here. In my view that speaks volumes about the company’s values as a customer focussed, quality driven manufacturer. 

Good luck in resolving your problems. Unfortunately now that you’ve had the van for 12months I think you face an uphill battle, depending on how responsive your dealer is. Some of them lose interest the day after handover.

Tim

Kemerton-bath wrote:It’s pretty dismal to put it mildly. With that track record of holiday disruption I think I’d be making an approach directly to AS’s CEO.

From other reports on here in recent years it seems AS have surrendered all responsibility for habitation electrics to Sargent, to such an extent that AS no longer have sufficient knowledge to hold their subcontractor’s feet to the fire.  One of the golden rules of procurement is that you should be an intelligent customer of your suppliers, otherwise they get the better of you, and AS have clearly failed to follow this.

Moreover, as reported by an adjacent thread originated by Wilksy, AS dig their hole even deeper by not bothering to even adequately  secure the EC700 panel to the bulkhead, nor pay much attention to cable management. It all points to the sad fact that quality is not what it should be and attention to detail beneath the attractive  finishes is skin deep. We are very happy with our Kemerton but would not be buying new given the growing list of recurring issues on AS’s vans. At the time we purchased it one of the workshop guys at the dealership, himself an ex AS employer, told me quietly that quality had steadily gone downhill at the Willersey factory and that our year of build (2015) was one of the last solid ones.

As for whether AS take note of this forum, judging by number of issues that repeatedly get reported on here year after year, they do not. I cannot believe they are ignorant about the existence of ASOF, it doesn’t take any effort to find online, but they have chosen to ignore the body of experience and generally objective feedback that exists here. In my view that speaks volumes about the company’s values as a customer focussed, quality driven manufacturer. 

Good luck in resolving your problems. Unfortunately now that you’ve had the van for 12months I think you face an uphill battle, depending on how responsive your dealer is. Some of them lose interest the day after handover.

Tim

I have e-mailed the head of quality, the works manager and the head of communications... nothing, not one call, not one e-mail to acknowledge, nothing.

I can only believe that the the people at AS both know about and read the stuff on here, but choose not to give a monkeys, whilst they have a 12 month + waiting list for vans, why would they care, they have the money in the bank and the dealers have to pick up the work

They are not a customer focused business and quality definitely isn't high on their agenda. If anybody has the e-mail for the CEO I would be grateful.

Don't know  if this is current...

geoff.scott@marquisleisure.co.uk or this

Has anyone ever had a new build from AS with no problem?
When I bought my Nuevo, Customer Services at AS told me they never look at the forums!! The 'Quality Manager' would never talk to customers(me!) with problems, that was left to the Service Manager to pick up the crap. That was 2014 and it is certainly no better now going by recent posts!

Over nearly 30 years I have had 3 new caravans and now a new motorhome and they all had warranty issues.  What has been different about the motorhome is its high cost, its electronic/electric complexity (oh for the simplicity of switches) which was at the heart of most of my problems, the split warranty between the vehicle and habitation and in my case no local dealers for either and not being able to drop the vehicle off and return later when the work was complete.  Fortunately I didn't buy my motorhome until I had retired.  If I had still been working I don't know how I would have coped.

We are on our third panel, in our 2019 Bourton and the second RCD unit. If you phone Sargents they can help to get some things in the van working, not all but somethings remotely, like lights etc. I have had panel surround modified 4 screws in the corners and I've mounted the panel on valcro pads, got rid of the black mastic Auto-Sleeper use to stick the panel in with, the black colour on the panel is the mastic underneath. 
So when on site I can ring sargents ask for a new panel, they can check remotely if it's nackard and send one out (to the site) to me next day (which they actually did with me) you will need to return your old panel, then just plug it in and away you go. One thing I would mention on my last panel on the back it said - EC700. V  2, does this stand for version two, but so far so good (kiss of death) all working well, 2500 miles and counting.

I am not sure there are many manufacturers of any product that get involved with owners clubs/forums.I believe they view it as a source of aggravation from the disgruntled who in all honestly are probably the minority. Don’t get me wrong,if there is an issue there is every right to be disgruntled,I’ve been there, and expect to have the issue resolved.Not being resolved and being repeated time and again is the biggest issue.
In the case of AS I am in the same camp as Kemerton-bath,I love my warwickXL (now issues have been resolved) but if buying new again I would not be product loyal and look around very carefully.

Quality control is a recurring thread on ASOF.
I expect it comes up on other forums.
I also think that a person does not read these threads before buying new.
IMHO its best to go straight to the dealer first.
In writing and keep a copy. Hand it in personally or recorded delivery.
Follow up with a phone call.
Keep a record of all correspondence.
If nothing is happening write to the Manufacturer and send copies that went to the dealer.
Phone dealer to confirm this and Manufacturer.
Its a pain but written letters or emails can be effective.
Serious problems take solicitor action.early.
regards

Micky

jacklee2 wrote:We are on our third panel, in our 2019 Bourton and the second RCD unit. If you phone Sargents they can help to get some things in the van working, not all but somethings remotely, like lights etc. I have had panel surround modified 4 screws in the corners and I've mounted the panel on valcro pads, got rid of the black mastic Auto-Sleeper use to stick the panel in with, the black colour on the panel is the mastic underneath. 
So when on site I can ring sargents ask for a new panel, they can check remotely if it's nackard and send one out (to the site) to me next day (which they actually did with me) you will need to return your old panel, then just plug it in and away you go. One thing I would mention on my last panel on the back it said - EC700. V  2, does this stand for version two, but so far so good (kiss of death) all working well, 2500 miles and counting.

Have you seen the new panel I made for my brand new Corinium the EC700 is now mounted properly, no mastic, no tape just good old fashioned M4 capscrews, easy to remove should the need arise.

My sympathies RCBirmingham, we're on our third EC700 panel. We were more fortunate, our two previous EC700 panels failed when the van was parked on our drive.

Apart from the EC700 issue and the bathroom tap that kept coming loose, the other significant event was A-S finding damp in the van's floor during it's first annual habitation check last year. I discovered that the cause was an inadequately sealed external upper fridge vent. I took many hours reducing the damp levels to avoid me having to leave the van with A-S, this would have been weeks. It was booked in but when I returned to Willersey the damp levels were back to being acceptable for them and we could come home.

Why are the Sargent units so useless, replaced ours a couple of years back as we lost some of our spotlights in the rear and down one side, the willersey service Center said the Sargent unit was the cause, just come back from being away and the same problem has occurred with the same spots being out, if it’s the Sargent unit again I shan’t be very happy especially as the motorhome has been on SORN for the past 18months due to lockdown so it’s had barely any use, until I can investigate further I won’t know for sure but it’s looking that way. 🤬

About a year ago leaving a site I came to turn my driving seat around to face the front and it was completely stuck facing the wrong way, after about 1 hour and brute force grinding all the bearings up inside the turning plate I managed to get it back into place, fortunately it clicked into place, then about a 70 mile drive home without any problems.
Then the fun started, I contacted my dealer who in turn contacted Auto-Sleeper, not our problem said AutoSleeper you will need to contact Mercedes, no said Mercedes we don't do motorhome seats you will need to go back to AutoSleeper, no said AutoSleeper you will have to go back to Mercedes (you get the picture) cutting a very long story short AutoSleeper was right, seems AutoSleeper make the seats and Mercedes make the bases. Now stand back and be impressed when the mighty Mercedes moves into action.
Telephone call from the service manager at Mercedes telling that the turning plates are made in Germany and they had placed a special order for delivery next day. A technician was sent out to make sure the van was safe to drive which it was (70 mile round trip), then a 2 man team was dispatched to collect the van from my home (70 mile round trip again) return next day with the new turning plate fitted plus 3 recalls on the van carried out. Maybe good service is not dead after-all, Just think how good it would be if AutoSleeper looked after customer like this?

There’s a long que for customers to be disgruntled AS owners….they just don’t know it yet.
The shame of it all is that there is potentially a very good product cos when it’s right it’s good.

jacklee2 wrote:About a year ago leaving a site I came to turn my driving seat around to face the front and it was completely stuck facing the wrong way, after about 1 hour and brute force grinding all the bearings up inside the turning plate I managed to get it back into place, fortunately it clicked into place, then about a 70 mile drive home without any problems.
Then the fun started, I contacted my dealer who in turn contacted Auto-Sleeper, not our problem said AutoSleeper you will need to contact Mercedes, no said Mercedes we don't do motorhome seats you will need to go back to AutoSleeper, no said AutoSleeper you will have to go back to Mercedes (you get the picture) cutting a very long story short AutoSleeper was right, seems AutoSleeper make the seats and Mercedes make the bases. Now stand back and be impressed when the mighty Mercedes moves into action.
Telephone call from the service manager at Mercedes telling that the turning plates are made in Germany and they had placed a special order for delivery next day. A technician was sent out to make sure the van was safe to drive which it was (70 mile round trip), then a 2 man team was dispatched to collect the van from my home (70 mile round trip again) return next day with the new turning plate fitted plus 3 recalls on the van carried out. Maybe good service is not dead after-all, Just think how good it would be if AutoSleeper looked after customer like this?

Prices would have to go up a lot.
Micky

Kdc wrote:There’s a long que for customers to be disgruntled AS owners….they just don’t know it yet.
The shame of it all is that there is potentially a very good product cos when it’s right it’s good.

That is the very sad part of it all Kdc, the product appeals to many because the layouts generally offer something different to the continental vans (I’m not knocking them by the way!). I only bought a PVC because of the A/S layout that just felt right to me when I sat in it.

Apart from one big issue, which was sorted 100% luckily just before Mark left, to answer a question asked earlier, my van has been faultless and I’m completely happy with it.

Saying that, I do feel very fortunate as some of the issues experienced by many with brand new vans has been nothing short of scandalous. A/S should be doing everything in their power to address these problems but they just don’t seem to care 

I just don’t understand their short term thinking?

Dbvwt wrote:

Kdc wrote:There’s a long que for customers to be disgruntled AS owners….they just don’t know it yet.
The shame of it all is that there is potentially a very good product cos when it’s right it’s good.

That is the very sad part of it all Kdc, the product appeals to many because the layouts generally offer something different to the continental vans (I’m not knocking them by the way!). I only bought a PVC because of the A/S layout that just felt right to me when I sat in it.

Apart from one big issue, which was sorted 100% luckily just before Mark left, to answer a question asked earlier, my van has been faultless and I’m completely happy with it.

Saying that, I do feel very fortunate as some of the issues experienced by many with brand new vans has been nothing short of scandalous. A/S should be doing everything in their power to address these problems but they just don’t seem to care 

I just don’t understand their short term thinking?

It's not short term thinking, it's been this way since before I bought mine 7 years ago!! Same problems just going round and round.
Why did Mark leave the service center?!!!!!!!!He stopped me going completley mad.
I still find it difficult to understand why AS has such a 'good' reputation with buyers!

My understanding of Mark leaving  is because he used to report the frequent  complaints and faults to management but nobody took any notice, frustration eventually  led him to leave.

Paulmold wrote:My understanding of Mark leaving  is because he used to report the frequent  complaints and faults to management but nobody took any notice, frustration eventually  led him to leave.

Correct Paul, but it was more than that!

I got to know him quite well as we live near Willersey. 

What finally saw him off was the frequent, and very nasty abuse he received from customers - regrettably some of whom were (may still be?) ASOF and/or ASOC members. As many of us are aware, he did his level best, but could do nothing to persuade the factory to listen to frequent and repeated complaints.

When the customers kept taking it out on him, he became totally demoralised and finally left - for a much better paid job.

As ever, it was the unpleasant, inconsiderate few who ruined it for the rest of us. He would still be there if he had received consideration and understanding from the customers.

We got to know Mark quite well too, his reasons for leaving were due to the Trigano take over & added pressure, revenue profits, etc. He talked about rumoured production being moved to AutoTrail a sister company within the group, so he got out of it & took a job at a VW dealership as service manager which he said paid better with less responsibility. 

I’m quite confident in thinking he’s probably more valued & wouldn’t be surprised if he’s now a branch manager. Sadly his experience & ability to reach out to customers to resolve issues appeared to be very unappreciated by AS & his replacement was a young brummy female severely lacking in customer service experience IMO 

After reversing all the work they carried out on our last visit & their dishonesty in severely overcharging for parts from Sargent which I could obtain way cheaper myself, they had no choice but to issue a full refund for parts & Labour. I corrected their excessively overcharged work myself & we’ve not been back since nor do we intend too unless absolutely left with no choice.

He never referred to any nastiness by ASOF members to me & we used to discuss the forum  
Can’t speak for ASOC mind

I’ve been a happy Sussex Duo owner for the past 11years and have had only minor problems none of which were based on quality problems that could be laid at AS’s door. I have always had excellent responses from both Mark and Alan Curry at AS. I do get the impression that their quality standards have dropped in recent years looking at recent models in the showroom.

However Sargent’s service leaves a lot to be desired. The 12v module on our 500 unit failed. Sargent quoted 3weeks to repair but within the 3days it took to send to them for repair this strangely extended to seven weeks. Purchased a new 12v module to save time and holiday. New module arrived but was dead. Three more weeks to replace the dud unit as out of stock and only made in batch mode. When I complained to Sargent about the service I was clearly told that they would only deal with the dealer doing the repair as they were the customer.

Blimey Willyolly, where have you been , member sine 2012 and no posts since then until now 9 years later? Obviously  you've had no problems to take about, even  the Sargent  problems didn't warrant discussing  at the time. I have same van, mine being  a 2010. I'm glad to say I don't have the ec500 system and any problems  I've had have been appliances bought in such as Truma Combi elements needing replacement,  Dometic fridge which a  service and fan fitted sorted, cooker thermocouple and Air con unit that failed and can't be repaired,  so I had it removed and another rooflight in its place. As you said,  nothing that could be blamed on AS quality.

There are several problems with trying to get your outlay refunded. If you get a problem when it is new the law obliges you to give the retailer an opportunity to fix the problem. I think the only successful course of action is just to give them one opportunity. The second problem you have is that when you have given them (the retailer) two opportunities to rectify the problem, you are deemed in law to have accepted the item. The retailer is responsible for the rubbish workmanship of the manufacturer, so there is no point trying the manufacturer. The third problem is that the retailer will not give you your money back unless a court orders them to. The fourth cost of trying to get a refund is that a letter from your solicitor to the retailer costs £600. You will have to pay this: it is only people on benefits or in prison and super rich people who can afford legal representation.
In a similar situation to yours, but within 3 months of buying a repeatedly defective motorhome, my small town solicitor charged me the said £600 to write a 'I want my money back - this item is defective and is unfit for purpose' letter. That failed, so I went back to the solicitor who said "OK we can take them to court. I require a deposit of £20,000 which will buy you your first day in court. You must bear in mind that 'the law is a cross between a horse and a donkey' and if your motorhome only has three wheels the judge will find in favour of the dealer and you will keep the three wheeler, pay my costs and pay the retailer's costs which will be considerably more than mine".
I decided that the cheapest way out would be to trade the vehicle in which is what I did. I lost £4,000. It wasn't an A/S, it was a Rapido. Never again, they make A/S quality control look splendid.
Between you and me and the gate post I now have a German motorhome, a 2009 model and it is so far superior to my AutoSleeper I frequently stand back and admire the wiring, the cabinetry, the design, and the general build quality.
And you are right about switches. Black plastic switches which go click and join two pieces of metal together are far far superior to the awful touch screen things. As are light switches on the wall at elbow height. Would you buy a house with light switches on the ceiling? Neither would I. I also do not need (or know how) to use a phone to turn on the motorhome heating as I leave a pub three miles down the road. I do not need a waste water heater. I do not need an electronic dispaly to tell me if it is sunny or raining outside.  I do not need to get out of bed to turn off the lights at night, I can do it when I am in bed. And lots of similar showroom sales gimmicks. The Nuevo has a tiny weeny switch on the ceiling in the washroom - this is a fairly common thing in motorhomes. the last time a salesman told me that 'this has four berths so it is an ideal family motorhome' I went to the washroom where the light switch was on the ceiling and asked the salesman "how can my four year old use the toilet at night when he can't turn on the light?" The salesman had no answer, other than some mumbling about rigging up a battery night light in the toilet. I said " so it's not a family motorhome then. Show me one which is". He couldn't so I left.