Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working

Page 3 of 4 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Go down

Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working - Page 3 Empty Re: Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working

Post by groundhog on Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:42 pm

Mine is fitted on the inside wall of the tank, I will try to take a picture for you. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] TCL4 looks remarkably similar to mine but I will check tomorrow, I can also find out  from Marquis Plymouth if you would like. I know they fitted it very quickly so the job cannot be that hard!


Last edited by groundhog on Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:44 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : more info)
groundhog
groundhog
Donator
Donator

Posts : 2390
Joined : 2011-08-01
Location : Poldarkland
Auto-Sleeper : Worcester

Back to top Go down

Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working - Page 3 Empty Re: Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working

Post by Jaytee on Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:53 pm

groundhog wrote:Mine is fitted on the inside wall of the tank, I will try to take a picture for you. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] TCL4 looks remarkably similar to mine but I will check tomorrow, I can also find out  from Marquis Plymouth if you would like. I know they fitted it very quickly so the job cannot be that hard!

I have noticed that CAK are at the NEC so I will find them and have a chat. A pic would be handy but dont go to too much trouble up!

_________________
We are not here long so do it while you can [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Jaytee
Jaytee
Donator
Donator

Male

Posts : 3039
Joined : 2013-11-08
Member Age : 71
Location : Nr Filey North Yorkshire
Auto-Sleeper : Winchcombe
Vehicle Year : 2013

Back to top Go down

Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working - Page 3 Empty Re: Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working

Post by Peter Brown on Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:55 pm

Jaytee wrote:

I have noticed that CAK are at the NEC so I will find them and have a chat. A pic would be handy but dont go to too much trouble up!

What day?  I should be there with ACCEO Tuesday and Friday.

Peter
Peter Brown
Peter Brown
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 5453
Joined : 2012-11-10
Member Age : 67
Location : Staffs
Auto-Sleeper : Malvern
Vehicle Year : 2011

Back to top Go down

Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working - Page 3 Empty Re: Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working

Post by Jaytee on Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:57 pm

We are there Thursday. A lot to do though and people and friends to see so may have to spread to Friday as well smile!

_________________
We are not here long so do it while you can [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Jaytee
Jaytee
Donator
Donator

Male

Posts : 3039
Joined : 2013-11-08
Member Age : 71
Location : Nr Filey North Yorkshire
Auto-Sleeper : Winchcombe
Vehicle Year : 2013

Back to top Go down

Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working - Page 3 Empty Re: Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working

Post by JDS on Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:08 pm

On the bottom of the tank dead centre about 10 inches diameter. Screw off relatively easy. Could get my hand inside easily, put a torch inside and you can see all areas of the tank. I put a little thetford spray seal on the rubber o ring on reassembly sealed no problem. Should be easy to fit with a large holesaw.

_________________
Dave & Jeanette
JDS
JDS
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 152
Joined : 2011-02-20
Member Age : 67
Location : Salop
Auto-Sleeper : Bourton ES LT
Vehicle Year : 2015

Back to top Go down

Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working - Page 3 Empty Re: Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working

Post by JDS on Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:09 pm

Sorry cant post a photo, the Broadway has been exchanged for a Bourton today.

_________________
Dave & Jeanette
JDS
JDS
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 152
Joined : 2011-02-20
Member Age : 67
Location : Salop
Auto-Sleeper : Bourton ES LT
Vehicle Year : 2015

Back to top Go down

Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working - Page 3 Empty Re: Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working

Post by Jaytee on Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:18 pm

JDS wrote:On the bottom of the tank dead centre about 10 inches diameter. Screw off relatively easy. Could get my hand inside easily, put a torch inside and you can see all areas of the tank. I put a little thetford spray seal on the rubber o ring on reassembly sealed no problem. Should be easy to fit with a large holesaw.

Excellent, thanks. Dont worry about pic, I can visualise ok. up!

_________________
We are not here long so do it while you can [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Jaytee
Jaytee
Donator
Donator

Male

Posts : 3039
Joined : 2013-11-08
Member Age : 71
Location : Nr Filey North Yorkshire
Auto-Sleeper : Winchcombe
Vehicle Year : 2013

Back to top Go down

Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working - Page 3 Empty Re: Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working

Post by inspiredron on Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:29 pm

Henderson's bits look very good. A six inch access is great for replacing th epump without dropping the tank. The only question is whether the tanks are thick enough for the flange bolts to hold without another flange inside the tank. And cutting the 100mm hole would be scary!

_________________
Best wishes - Ron
inspiredron
inspiredron
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 2360
Joined : 2012-06-02
Member Age : 78
Location : Carshalton
Auto-Sleeper : Lancashire
Vehicle Year : 2012

Back to top Go down

Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working - Page 3 Empty Re: Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working

Post by Nuevo on Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:41 pm

don't think its just unique to autosleeper steve they can only work with what's available in the trade
Dave drinksallround

_________________
The frightening thing about middle age is that you'll grow out of it
Nuevo
Nuevo
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 157
Joined : 2012-01-03
Member Age : 61
Location : Spalding
Auto-Sleeper : Nuevo

Back to top Go down

Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working - Page 3 Empty Re: Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working

Post by cyclo on Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:31 pm

My tank has been modified at some time and has the Henderson TCL4 fitted. I had a leak from the seal round the hatch and enquired at AS

service centre, they told me that it would have been supplied by Cak tanks. On checking with Cak I realised that this was wrong and after

finding the name Henderson on the cover I googled it and found the reference number. I rang Henderson and enquired about the seal and was

surprised that they didn't supply this, they said that the seal would have been produced by whoever did the modification. The seal was in a black

material, I posted on the forum when I had the leak but did not get a solution no doubt because it wasn't a standard fitment. When I took the van to AS

for a service and hab check I asked them to fix the leak which they did and it did not seem to be a problem to them, unfortunately I forgot to ask them

how they did it. I do have photographs if they are any help and if I can work out how to post them.  scratch head scratch head
cyclo
cyclo
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 110
Joined : 2014-02-27
Member Age : 72
Location : West Yorkshire
Auto-Sleeper : Broadway EK

Back to top Go down

Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working - Page 3 Empty Re: Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working

Post by JDS on Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:48 pm

Just had a look at the online CAK tanks catalogue. This is what was fitted to mine.
TH5010 Page 20
"10 inch Threaded captive ring hatch full sealed (7 inch access hole)".
£30.22.


Last edited by JDS on Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:52 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Price added.)

_________________
Dave & Jeanette
JDS
JDS
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 152
Joined : 2011-02-20
Member Age : 67
Location : Salop
Auto-Sleeper : Bourton ES LT
Vehicle Year : 2015

Back to top Go down

Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working - Page 3 Empty Re: Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working

Post by cyclo on Fri Feb 13, 2015 12:06 pm

The one shown in the Cak catalogue looks very similar to the Henderson TCL4. When I rang Cak last year and gave them the sizes

I was told that they didn't do anything of those dimensions, perhaps it is a new addition. I will be visiting their stand next week and

see what they say. The 'O' ring in the cap is available from Henderson but the sealing of the retaining rings is unclear to me. The seal

has to be good with the weight of water being held in the tank.
cyclo
cyclo
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 110
Joined : 2014-02-27
Member Age : 72
Location : West Yorkshire
Auto-Sleeper : Broadway EK

Back to top Go down

Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working - Page 3 Empty Re: Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working

Post by Driftwood6 on Wed Sep 02, 2015 6:10 pm

Add me to the list of Nuevo (2014 model)  owners with the same problem. The problem was initially intermittent but the severity crept up on me and all fresh water readings failed completely when the van was 13 months old. Have spent all day checking connections, plugs etc., and then came in and read this thread - I could have saved myself a lot of time if I had searched this forum earlier. I am going to source some Aquastar and try that as per Alpaca and Peter Brown above.
Driftwood6
Driftwood6
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 47
Joined : 2014-06-25
Member Age : 72
Location : Newport Shropshire
Auto-Sleeper : 2014 Nuveo EK
Vehicle Year : 2014

Back to top Go down

Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working - Page 3 Empty Re: Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working

Post by Peter Brown on Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:11 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

After discussions with Sargent and Kilrock I bought enough Descalene to fill the fresh water tank at the appropriate mix and did so in spring. Since doing that descaling exercise the indications have been 95% reliable this year - best since the van was new.

We drink from the water tank and the Descalene was safe. As a bonus the water heater was also descaled but the shower had an interesting aroma for a couple of days after!

The probes are like screws in plaster board wall plugs. Sargent now suggest unscrewing and retightening them to remove the scale. Logical and I'm sure it will work but leaks are a risk. For the cost its probably just as well to replace the probes when necessary. Unfortunately to get to some you have to drop the tank.

_________________
Peter #1
Peter Brown
Peter Brown
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 5453
Joined : 2012-11-10
Member Age : 67
Location : Staffs
Auto-Sleeper : Malvern
Vehicle Year : 2011

Back to top Go down

Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working - Page 3 Empty Re: Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working

Post by Backtrax on Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:52 am

Peter Brown,
Descalene looks to be in interesting product. How much (at what concentration) did you use for the water tank.
FYI my 2010 Broadway has never exhibited the problems with erroneous level indications that this thread deals with. We are away in the van at least 5 months of each year and like you use the water in the tanks for drinking etc. I do sterilize the tank twice a year with a 1000mg chlorine tablet. I am inclined to think that the issue is more about marginal electrical resistance and the preset sensitivity of the detection circuit. That said I cannot believe the studs in my van are not progressively scaling up and I am also aware that chlorine is not the best product for stainless steel. So I thought to use the product you have recommended as a preventative measure.
Back on the electrical resistance theory I would estimate the wiring loom run from Sargent panel to tank to be between 2.5 & 3 meters. How does this compare to yours?
Backtrax
Backtrax
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 449
Joined : 2012-04-29
Member Age : 70
Location : Ormskirk, Lancashire
Auto-Sleeper : Broadway EL Duo 2010

Back to top Go down

Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working - Page 3 Empty Re: Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working

Post by Jaytee on Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:59 am

My waste water which has the same probes has been a complete waste of time since new even with various interventions from stealers.
After picking off the totally uselessly applied  sealant I took out the SS screws which as you say go into rubber grommets or rawl nuts, cleaned them all up, replaced the corroded mild steel spring washers with SS and cleaned the corroded cable terminal ends. All back together and it is still useless so will just disconnect and ignore. shrugg
There is little chance of inducing a leak after refitting the screws as the grommets swell as the screws tighten and self seal.

_________________
We are not here long so do it while you can [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Jaytee
Jaytee
Donator
Donator

Male

Posts : 3039
Joined : 2013-11-08
Member Age : 71
Location : Nr Filey North Yorkshire
Auto-Sleeper : Winchcombe
Vehicle Year : 2013

Back to top Go down

Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working - Page 3 Empty Re: Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working

Post by Peter Brown on Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:34 am

Backtrax wrote: I am inclined to think that the issue is more about marginal electrical resistance and the preset sensitivity of the detection circuit. Back on the electrical resistance theory I would estimate the wiring loom run from Sargent panel to tank to be between 2.5 & 3 meters. How does this compare to yours?

I agree entirely, my previous two vans had the same system that worked faultlessly, as does this one if I make hard electrical connections at the studs on the tank.

I used 12 doses of Descalene mixed in hot water and pumped in to the tank.  I primed the water system to fill the water heater and I then topped up the tank with hot water till it overflowed.  On the advice of Killrock, I only left it in for an hour or so then drained and flushed a couple of times with full tanks of fresh water.  It did leave a bit of a taste behind that disappeared after a couple of days use.

The level indicator in my waste tank is a float.  After driving in the wet it always shows full so there is a fault in the loom insulation but its not worth the effort to trace it.

_________________
Peter #1
Peter Brown
Peter Brown
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 5453
Joined : 2012-11-10
Member Age : 67
Location : Staffs
Auto-Sleeper : Malvern
Vehicle Year : 2011

Back to top Go down

Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working - Page 3 Empty Re: Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working

Post by Driftwood6 on Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:49 am

Peter Brown wrote:
Backtrax wrote: I am inclined to think that the issue is more about marginal electrical resistance and the preset sensitivity of the detection circuit. Back on the electrical resistance theory I would estimate the wiring loom run from Sargent panel to tank to be between 2.5 & 3 meters. How does this compare to yours?

I agree entirely, my previous two vans had the same system that worked faultlessly, as does this one if I make hard electrical connections at the studs on the tank.

I used 12 doses of Descalene mixed in hot water and pumped in to the tank.  I primed the water system to fill the water heater and I then topped up the tank with hot water till it overflowed.  On the advice of Killrock, I only left it in for an hour or so then drained and flushed a couple of times with full tanks of fresh water.  It did leave a bit of a taste behind that disappeared after a couple of days use.

The level indicator in my waste tank is a float.  After driving in the wet it always shows full so there is a fault in the loom insulation but its not worth the effort to trace it.
OK so Aquastar has been discontinued so I won't be using that.. It is still advertised on a few web sites but nobody appears to actually have any left. Looks like Descalene is the next one to investigate. Peter did you do any specific calculations to arrive at 12 doses or was it an educated guess? I can get two packs of 50gm on Amazon for  £2.84 with delivery but did not see anything about the recommended dilution. As it will be for 105 litres plus the capacity of the Truma heater unit (I will have to read up on the capacity) I can see it might take a lot of product but I don't want to waste my effort by not adding enough, or even worse, too much. Did you have to take any action to remove the loosened scale from the inside of the heater afterwards as it is not easy to access in the Nuevo.


Last edited by Driftwood6 on Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:51 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Typos)
Driftwood6
Driftwood6
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 47
Joined : 2014-06-25
Member Age : 72
Location : Newport Shropshire
Auto-Sleeper : 2014 Nuveo EK
Vehicle Year : 2014

Back to top Go down

Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working - Page 3 Empty Re: Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working

Post by Peter Brown on Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:03 am

I bought 3 double packs of two doses = 12 doses.

I think I estimated the dosage on the phone to the Killrock technical dept but can't remember the reasoning. My tank is 75 litre and I forgot to include the heater capacity so guess 14 doses would have been better.

_________________
Peter #1
Peter Brown
Peter Brown
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 5453
Joined : 2012-11-10
Member Age : 67
Location : Staffs
Auto-Sleeper : Malvern
Vehicle Year : 2011

Back to top Go down

Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working - Page 3 Empty Re: Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working

Post by Paulmold on Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:19 am

Kilrock descaler is often stocked by Aldi. Last time it was £1.99 for 400ml bottle.

_________________
If life just doesn't add up, start subtracting
Paulmold
Paulmold
Donator
Donator

Male

Posts : 16166
Joined : 2011-02-21
Member Age : 68
Location : Mold, North Wales
Auto-Sleeper : Sussex Duo
Vehicle Year : 2010

Back to top Go down

Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working - Page 3 Empty Re: Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working

Post by Peter Brown on Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:16 am

KIlrock advised that the prime product was not suitable to use in the fresh water tank. It was them that suggested Descalene was mots suitable.

Just unpack my Addi moisture meter - testing to follow

_________________
Peter #1
Peter Brown
Peter Brown
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 5453
Joined : 2012-11-10
Member Age : 67
Location : Staffs
Auto-Sleeper : Malvern
Vehicle Year : 2011

Back to top Go down

Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working - Page 3 Empty Re: Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working

Post by Paulmold on Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:38 pm

Peter Brown wrote:KIlrock advised that the prime product was not suitable to use in the fresh water tank.  It was them that suggested Descalene was mots suitable.

That's a pity as I've just been to Aldi and they have Kilrock Big K (I assume that the 'Big' only refers to the size of 400ml as opposed to standard K at 250ml) at half price, 99p. Don't know why it should not be suitable for a fresh water tank as it is listed as being suitable for kettles and coffee makers whereas Descalene is primarily for washing machines and dishwashers as well as kettles. They also had Kilrock Big W for dishwashers/washing machines at 99p for 400ml.
Paulmold
Paulmold
Donator
Donator

Male

Posts : 16166
Joined : 2011-02-21
Member Age : 68
Location : Mold, North Wales
Auto-Sleeper : Sussex Duo
Vehicle Year : 2010

Back to top Go down

Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working - Page 3 Empty Re: Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working

Post by Driftwood6 on Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:51 pm

Have just had a couple of interesting days sorting out my water level indications. I was starting from a false negative situation where over a period of weeks the fresh water readings had become more erratic until eventually I was showing 0% all the time. I also had a new problem where the grey water indicator had failed and I had to rely on the 'Water comes up through the shower basin" method to be warned if my tank was full.

The grey water was easy to sort out. I removed the screws securing the Sargent box the back of the wardrobe and tipped the box forward which gave access to the connectors. (Trying to check them from underneath behind the drawer did not work) I found the connecting cable to be loose at one end - a quick click and the correct reading returned. This had no effect on the freshwater.

I went under the van, removed the insulation over the bottom two studs and then used a wire to short the two screws out - the 25% reading returned. I could not reach the other studs as I was not willing to start dropping the tank just three days before setting off for France. Full of enthusiasm I took away the short and tried connecting the bottom stud to the chassis to ensure there was a good earth - it had no effect so I had to assume that the problem was hard water scale on the studs inside the tank.

I ordered some Descalene from Amazon but whilst waiting for delivery I decided to take the advice offered on this thread by attempting to unscrew the studs, starting with the bottom (earth) stud so I could clean off the scale. This failed miserably as the encapsulated nut in the rubber just turned until it came out completely. I subsequently realised that the scale build-up had caused the nut to seize on the stainless steel stud so that it could not turn.

As I now had a hole in the side of my tank and less than 48 hours before heading off to France I phoned Autosleepers Parts department and asked them to send me a set of studs (£7.50 plus £2.50 postage plus £2 VAT; Total £12) They arrived the following morning (i.e. today) by 1st Class post, well done AS.

I replaced the earth stud without any difficulty and then took out the 25% stud and replaced it - it came out easily and looked fairly clean although I could not reuse it as the rubber grommet fell inside the tank. I then started to slowly fill the tank whilst I went inside to watch the gauge. 25% soon came up as I expected. I was satisfied with this as at least I could get reassurance that the water would not run out halfway through our morning showers. Then good news, as I continued to fill up with water the 50%, 75% and 100% all appeared as and when they should - job done without dropping the tank. On inspecting the two studs I removed, only the bottom one showed any signs of furring up. I am not an electrician but I can see that the fact that this stud is the one that spends most time in the water with an electrical potential that there is a physical reason why only this one was furred up. 

On checking the fitted studs later I noticed a slight weeping of water from both of the grommets but another couple of turns with the screwdriver cured that. On the advice of AS once they were totally dry I covered the studs heads with black silicone and job done for very little cost and without a couple of hundred mile drive to Willersey.

My Nuevo tank had a removable access cover on the bottom of the tank but it was only about 100mm across. I could not get my hand far inside as the pump was there and could not easily be moved. I could feel that there was a lot of furring on the outside of the pump and so intend to use the Descalene when I return.

A last thought - how do you people manage on only 10-15 litres of water a day? I assume you are practicing in case you get stuck in the desert. We have had many family 'Discussions' about this with my wife who never manages on less than 50 litres a day and often more. However we rarely use campsites (we don't wild camp but do go to rallies, use France Passion, Aires and CLs etc ) when away we both shower in the van every day and I drink lots of tea and then there is the washing up and she has to wash her (long) hair [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]every other day etc etc., - we all have different life styles - but 10 litres a day????


Last edited by Driftwood6 on Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:56 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Grammatical error)
Driftwood6
Driftwood6
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 47
Joined : 2014-06-25
Member Age : 72
Location : Newport Shropshire
Auto-Sleeper : 2014 Nuveo EK
Vehicle Year : 2014

Back to top Go down

Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working - Page 3 Empty Re: Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working

Post by Jaytee on Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:10 pm

Interesting, thanks. Yes we use at least 50 litres a day unless we are conserving for whatever reason.

_________________
We are not here long so do it while you can [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Jaytee
Jaytee
Donator
Donator

Male

Posts : 3039
Joined : 2013-11-08
Member Age : 71
Location : Nr Filey North Yorkshire
Auto-Sleeper : Winchcombe
Vehicle Year : 2013

Back to top Go down

Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working - Page 3 Empty Re: Fresh Water Level Indicator Not Working

Post by Peter Brown on Wed Sep 09, 2015 5:08 pm

Driftwood6 wrote:As I now had a hole in the side of my tank and less than 48 hours before heading off to France I phoned Autosleepers Parts department and asked them to send me a set of studs (£7.50 plus £2.50 postage plus £2 VAT; Total £12) They arrived the following morning (i.e. today) by 1st Class post, well done AS.

Now aware of the cost of studs I've ordered a set today with the intention of trying to devise away of greatly increasing the surface area of the bottom/earth/reference stud to see if that will improve the reliability of indications.

Our usual average use of fresh water is 15 litres plus about 5 for the toilet flush. We don't use any site toilet, washing or washing up facilities and Jaytee (having been pitched alongside us for 10 days earlier this year) can verify that we look reasonably clean as do our dishes. I can also agree with Jaytee that he uses a lot more water than us!

If we have the sort of hair wash mentioned, a meal that requires a lot of washing up or vegetable boiling (when the microwave is not usable) or choose to have second showers then and extra 10 litres could be used but that is very much the exception.

_________________
Peter #1
Peter Brown
Peter Brown
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 5453
Joined : 2012-11-10
Member Age : 67
Location : Staffs
Auto-Sleeper : Malvern
Vehicle Year : 2011

Back to top Go down

Page 3 of 4 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum