Shurflo question
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Dave 418
NickT
R88BUC
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Shurflo question
Having had continual airlocks with the submersible pump in my Bourton I decided to fit a 20psi Shurflo pump. Consulting many of the post on here it was a relatively easy fit and all seemed well. During my first trip away I found that a short flush of the loo or opening a tap for a short time caused the Shurflo to make a humming noise but not pump. This noise would go on continuously until a tap was opened fully then the Shurflo would pump properly but seemed louder than normal. If a tap is opened to wash or fill the sink for example the pump works fine with normal noise level. I think a small pressure drop (short flush) causes the pressure switch to trigger but the remaining pressure in the system prevents the pump from running (stalled). The pump is new but I wonder if it is faulty? The set up is not usable in this state and I’m planning to go back to the submersible if I can’t find a solution.
Regarding the submersible pump I found a post on here where someone found that by increasing the length of pipe the submersible pump is on so the pump rests on the bottom of the tank at 45 degrees eliminated the air locks. What’s the thoughts on this? is it worth dropping the tank to try this?
Regarding the submersible pump I found a post on here where someone found that by increasing the length of pipe the submersible pump is on so the pump rests on the bottom of the tank at 45 degrees eliminated the air locks. What’s the thoughts on this? is it worth dropping the tank to try this?
R88BUC- Member
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Re: Shurflo question
Hi R88
Sounds to me like the pump is "cycling", so the pressure switch adjustment screw in the base of the pump needs to be screwed in (maximum of 1.5 turns, according to Shurflo instructions).
If that doesn't cure it an accumulator may be needed.
Sounds to me like the pump is "cycling", so the pressure switch adjustment screw in the base of the pump needs to be screwed in (maximum of 1.5 turns, according to Shurflo instructions).
If that doesn't cure it an accumulator may be needed.
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Nick
NickT- Member
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Re: Shurflo question
When I helped to fit a Sureflow pump it was advised that an accumulator should be fitted with it. Other people have said it saves the pump tripping on for short use of the water like flushing.
Dave 418- Donator
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Re: Shurflo question
Stalled might just be the word. Does this happen with the battery on charge? A steady electrical humming or buzzing noise would suggest that the motor is struggling to start the pump, which could indeed be a faulty pump but might possibly be due to insufficient volts at the pump.
Is there an external non-return valve in the system? If so where is it, before or after the pump?
As I have said elsewhere in my opinion a lot of the wiring in these vans is undersize, causing excessive voltage drop. Shurflos need a good jolt to start since the swash plates are under some degree of back pressure from the system, unlike the in-tank submersibles which are just a freely rotating centrifugal impeller. If the pressure doesn’t drop promptly as an outlet is opened then the motor might be constrained by the back pressure in the system. Measure the voltage at the pump as somebody else tries to flush the loo. If the voltage dives the pump is drawing power but cannot start.
Is there an external non-return valve in the system? If so where is it, before or after the pump?
As I have said elsewhere in my opinion a lot of the wiring in these vans is undersize, causing excessive voltage drop. Shurflos need a good jolt to start since the swash plates are under some degree of back pressure from the system, unlike the in-tank submersibles which are just a freely rotating centrifugal impeller. If the pressure doesn’t drop promptly as an outlet is opened then the motor might be constrained by the back pressure in the system. Measure the voltage at the pump as somebody else tries to flush the loo. If the voltage dives the pump is drawing power but cannot start.
The Bargee- Member
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Re: Shurflo question
If there is, the Shurflo hasn't been installed correctly. The Whale NRV that is integrated with the Whale pressure switch should have been removed when the Shurflo was fitted. But even if it remains connected to the Shurflo's water inflow, it shouldn't stop the pump from working. Some installations have a second Truma NRV that should stop water from the hot water tank mixing with the cold water but again this should have no impact on the pump.The Bargee wrote:...
Is there an external non-return valve in the system? If so where is it, before or after the pump?
...
The OP reported trouble when a tap is only partially open i.e. it is restricting the flow. We tend not to do this as it makes the pump go on and off quickly just as the Whale used to. So for us its taps fully open or shut.
Some have suggested fitting an accumulator. We haven't done this and haven't found the need to but maybe if we did it would make the pump cycle on and off more slowly when a tap is only partially open.
The OP reports a hum but no water flow from the pump so I expect the normal cycling of the pump on and off when a tap is only partially open is not the problem.
Caraman- Member
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Re: Shurflo question
Thank you all for the suggestions. To keep the installation simple and the space available in this version of Bourton, the pump was sited upright and basically replaced the whale pressure switch. The Shurflo pressure adjustment screw is not accessible with the pump in location and therefore I couldn’t easily make adjustment. The stalling issue is not mentioned in the reasons or troubleshooting sections of the manual for making adjustments so I didn’t try while I was away.
Last night I removed pump and decrease the adjustment screw in stages. After a few steps the stalling issue has been eliminated, so I can only conclude that as mentioned above back pressure was preventing the pump starting I guess the stalled motor would eventually have burnt out if left.
It would not be very easy to fit an accumulator without major plumbing changes.
I don’t think there is an external Nrv.
The main issue now is the vibrating noise of the swing wall makes as the system pressures back up.
Last night I removed pump and decrease the adjustment screw in stages. After a few steps the stalling issue has been eliminated, so I can only conclude that as mentioned above back pressure was preventing the pump starting I guess the stalled motor would eventually have burnt out if left.
It would not be very easy to fit an accumulator without major plumbing changes.
I don’t think there is an external Nrv.
The main issue now is the vibrating noise of the swing wall makes as the system pressures back up.
R88BUC- Member
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Re: Shurflo question
The reason that I mentioned the NRV is that some installers, including myself, fitted an external NRV just downstream of the pump (on the outlet) to overcome the problem of tiny particles in the water fouling the built-in NRV and allowing back flow to the tank. If that (optional) NRV is installed upstream (before) the pump then the system pressure is lying against the swash plates. You wouldn’t think that this would cause a problem but going back some time (seventies) I recall a lot of problems with failed micro switches (the actual pressure switch) where the micro switch would fail “on” and the pump would run until it physically stalled and burnt out (or the fuse blew). Hence again some installers (including myself) also fitted an external pressure switch to improve reliability.
Personally I don’t think the NRV hypothesis is the problem, but it is a possibility if one has been fitted inadvertently, or remains 8n place, upstream of the pump.
The OP perhaps needs to address again the question of is this reported “hum” indeed continuous as he says, which would suggest a stalled motor, or intermittent in the sense of “on-off-on-off” which would be “cycling.”
I would still suspect voltage drop but it is easy to test this either by meter or by simply connecting the pump temporarily to the battery with some heavier cable.
Anyway, I now see that the OP has apparently cured the problem by reducing the cut-off pressure, which will effectively de-rate the pump and reduce the starting load on the pump motor, so all would seem well!
Personally I don’t think the NRV hypothesis is the problem, but it is a possibility if one has been fitted inadvertently, or remains 8n place, upstream of the pump.
The OP perhaps needs to address again the question of is this reported “hum” indeed continuous as he says, which would suggest a stalled motor, or intermittent in the sense of “on-off-on-off” which would be “cycling.”
I would still suspect voltage drop but it is easy to test this either by meter or by simply connecting the pump temporarily to the battery with some heavier cable.
Anyway, I now see that the OP has apparently cured the problem by reducing the cut-off pressure, which will effectively de-rate the pump and reduce the starting load on the pump motor, so all would seem well!
The Bargee- Member
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Caraman likes this post
Re: Shurflo question
Try removing the access panel on the swing wall marking which is the top which makes it easier to replace. Then fit foam pipe insulation to the hot and cold water pipes. This helps reduce the throbbing noise in the bathroom. Outside the bathroom we found the Shurflo to be quieter than the rather whiny Whale. However I think this depends on how the Shurflo has been mounted i.e. it’s feet aren’t screwed too tightly or the water pipes are not too short and pressed against the internal fittings.
The main issue now is the vibrating noise of the swing wall makes as the system pressures back up.
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jwells likes this post
Re: Shurflo question
Thanks Caraman, I will try that, as you say the pump it’s self is not too bad.
R88BUC- Member
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Shurflo question
I also have a Shurflo pump fitted to our Bourton, after the original pump failed.
The pump is fitted on large rubber mounts which cut down the noise. I also have some sound deadening material around it.
I haven't found the need for an accumulator, although I was prepared to fit one.
The pump runs smoothly, even if the taps are only partially opened. I do, however, have aerator/spray attachments (see photo) fitted to both taps, which restrict the flow. While they reduce the amount of water used by half, they still produce a strong spray, which can be directed around the sink and wash basin. With such a small water tank fitted to the later Bourtons, the water saving is a godsend. I have also reduced the water used in the shower by half, with an aerating shower head.
grahamsb- Member
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Re: Shurflo question
I have the same problem with my new Shurflo and whatever I've adjustments I've made to the pressure screw don't seem to solve this. So it looks like tge bext thing is to fit an accumulator. I was wondering what size folk suggest getting. Thanks
joeirish- Member
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Re: Shurflo question
I have noticed with mine that if the slightest air is sucked into the pump, it makes more noise. On mine I have to make sure the filter is seated properly and tight and its connections are similarly tight
Caraman- Member
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Re: Shurflo question
Thanks for the reply. I've checked all connections and none appear to be leaking. Could air still be getting in though? Also I didn't use a filter when I installed the pump yesterday as I didn't have one with me here in France. ThanksCaraman wrote:I have noticed with mine that if the slightest air is sucked into the pump, it makes more noise. On mine I have to make sure the filter is seated properly and tight and its connections are similarly tight
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Re: Shurflo question
On the inlet side of the pump, the only leak can be air getting in, not water getting out. So there is no point looking for a water leak. Visible evidence of air getting in can be bubbles appearing in the transparent filter.
Caraman- Member
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Re: Shurflo question
Thanks @Carman. I guess I'll have to fit a filter to see if air is getting in. Not sure there's any other way. Is there a specific transparent filter you'd recommend. Cheers
joeirish- Member
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Re: Shurflo question
Ok found the filters online. I suppose the next question is if I detect air getting in how do I fix this. Is it just a question of tightening all connections?
joeirish- Member
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Re: Shurflo question
The purpose of the filter is to protect the diaphragm pump from damage from grit etc. I don't know if its true but I have read that the Shurflo warranty can be invalidated if the filter isn't fitted. So it's probably a good idea to fit one. Whenever I drain down I unscrew the filter which is a way of checking the cleanliness of the water/tank. It's important to do this if there is a risk of freezing. If not the plastic filter case could crack which will let air in. On a couple of occasions when refitting the filter I didn't seat its rubber ring properly which caused a small amount of air to enter the system when the pump ran which caused additional noise. If you are sure the push fit connectors on the inlet side are pushed firmly home and other screw connectors are tight and not cross-threaded and there are no pinholes in the inlet pipe no air should be getting in.
Caraman- Member
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Re: Shurflo question
@Caraman thanks again for the latest. I fitted the pump yesterday but it the sputtering does seem to have got worse. It used jubilee clips over the connections to the bigger pipe and had to heat the original water pipe to push in the connecting barbs. So at the moment I'm not sure if air is getting in on the inlet. However over the years there has been issues with the hot water and definitely some air getting into the system there. But that's onbthe outlet side? Any ideas on how I could sort that? Would an accumulator be the best solution,?Cheers.
joeirish- Member
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Re: Shurflo question
All the pipe connections on my van are John Guest push fit. The exception is the connection between the Shurflo pump and its filter which is a screw fit and you don't have. I can't comment on your connections which are clearly different to mine. Similarly, I don't have or need an accumulator. If a significant amount of air is being sucked though the pump it probably will cause the water system to splutter. However, the only time I have encountered spluttering was when I forgot to close the Truma drain valve before priming the system.
Caraman- Member
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Re: Shurflo question
So attached is a photo of the pump installation. On the inlet side I had to insert one new connector between the new blue water pipe and the existing original water pipe. I've used jubilee clips at both ends of the blue water pipe. Not sure if the existing John Guest connector could have a leak? BTW the white masking tape is to hold the live connector in place as I'm using the old one and it was a bit loose.
joeirish- Member
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Re: Shurflo question
If air is getting into the pump you might be able to see bubbles in the translucent pipe on the outlet side. I know some people have fitted an accumulator to their Shurflo but my understanding is that they are only needed to smooth the water flow which on some diaphragm pumps can be jerky but this isn't the case on mine. If you are getting spluttering at the taps rather than an jerky flow, it suggests air is getting in which an accumulator won't cure.
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Re: Shurflo question
So back home and I've had tme to check everything. The shower head connection was leaking a little and I tightened this. I also ran the system for a few minutes and all in all it seems to not be sputtering anymore. I'll keep an eye but hopefully this is sorted. I've also put a bit of packing around the pipes at the back of the swing wall as you suggested previously and this also helps. I also found that the sliding mirror doors on the cabinet above the basin rattled and a small bit of foam between these also helps deaden the sound. So thanks again for all the help.
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Re: Shurflo question
Just one additional thought for future reference (but hopefully not!). It is worth checking that all the bolts around the periphery of the black pump body are reasonably and roughly equally tight. Have known air pulled in through there.
The Bargee- Member
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