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Water Pump Questions

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Monty-Plym
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Post by AD257 Sat Nov 11, 2023 8:53 am

Good morning,

We were about to set off for a trip to the Lakes for the week end yesterday, in our AS Winchcombe, until I discovered we had no water.

I believe the water pump has failed.

There is no water from the taps, no noise from the pump or pressure regulator and the 10a fuse keeps blowing.

I understand the pump is actually inside the underslung tank, which seems rather odd from a maintenance point of view.

My questions are:

1 Can anyone confirm the pump is in fact located within the water tank?
2 What type/make of pump is it?
3 Where is the tank access hatch located to enable the pump to be replaced?

Thanks in advance.
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Post by Bilbobaggins Sat Nov 11, 2023 9:01 am

If you put Shurflo into search box you will get lots of info about replacing your pump, no need to access tank

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Post by AD257 Sat Nov 11, 2023 9:45 am

Thanks Bilbobaggins. Lots of great information from that search. Locks like Shurflo is the way to go.
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Post by Peter Brown Sat Nov 11, 2023 3:10 pm

I had Shurflo and Flojet diaphragm pumps in vans for nearly twenty years, they work well but are noisy and output a pulsed flow, I've had to replace three failed pumps over that time - an easy job.

I've had the in tank Whale pump for 12 months and 124 nights camping.  It's quiet, smooth flowing and takes up no space in the van.  I think the Whale is a better solution and  over the last 10 years I only know of a very few who have swapped to diaphragm, in fact I know one very capable chap who swapped and then swapped back to Whale.

If you switch the Whale pump on when the tank is empty it will run continuously, overheat and burn out requiring, in most cases, the tank to be dropped to replace the pump.   The handbook warns against this possibility and you have to positively decide to switch the in tank pump on and should not do so if not much water in the tank (when I fill its always to the brim so not a problem for me).  Its handy that the in tank pump is the same as that used for external fill so most will always have a spare pump with them.
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Post by AD257 Sat Nov 11, 2023 6:36 pm

Peter, thank you for your view. More food for thought.
Not sure why my pump isn’t working as I always only switch on when the tank has sufficient water. It’s a pity the submersible pump isn’t accessible from inside the van as a tank drop is a major task and there doesn’t appear to be a simple workaround in the event if pump failure. Fortunately I always check everything is working before I leave home in a trip.
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Post by Caraman Sat Nov 11, 2023 7:20 pm

It matters not which pump you have, they are all prone to failure.  I have had both the Whale and Shurflo fail but the Shurflo is easier to replace which is reason enough to choose it.  The Shurflo is less sensitive to pressure changes so it comes on less frequently than the Whale when the taps are closed.  I have found it quiet and smooth in operation.  The Whale and its pressure switch/NRV trap water after drain down.  When the Shurflo's filter is unscrewed water drains back into the freshwater tank and it can then pump air.
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Post by gassygassy Sat Nov 11, 2023 9:59 pm

Having been told of the life expectancy of a Whale submersible by a friend who used to be a director of Swift, the first thing I did when I got my Bourton was to fit a Shurflo. Whether or not it is noisy can depend on where and how you mount it, and if the output water pipes are fixed to a furniture panel. Using cheap pipe insulation sleeves is a good way to stop the pipes pulsing against a panel.
If you do want to fit a Shurflo, you do not need to get the Whale out, just leave it where it is, disconnect the wires going to it and divert them to the Shurflo.
First make sure why your fuse is blowing - make sure it isn't simply a wire that has chafed against a bit of chassis metal which would cause the fuse to blow. i would have a strong suspicion that this is more likely than an internal fault in the pump, they usually go open circuit rather than short circuit.
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Post by glyne lock Sat Nov 11, 2023 11:09 pm

ref the whale pump .
they make workshops and mobile repair workers lots of money as they are not a easy item to repair
myself like the flojet and have a spare in my camper and have not needed it myself but have used it to help other people lots of times and keep replacing to carry as a spare
I would never be having a whale pump in any camper I own and if fitted from new would ask to be replaced with the flojet before collecting the camper at no extra cost
whale heating I would not have as to all the problems this also has been a high amount of problems so lots more work and for the camper owners cold nights and cold water
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Post by Caraman Sun Nov 12, 2023 7:10 am

gassygassy wrote:...
First make sure why your fuse is blowing - make sure it isn't simply a wire that has chafed against a bit of chassis metal which would cause the fuse to blow. i would have a strong suspicion that this is more likely than an internal fault in the pump, they usually go open circuit rather than short circuit.
This is a good point.  There may be something else protected by the internal water pump's 10A fuse that needs to be checked.  On my EC700 it's the external 'TankBlanket' fresh and waste water tank heaters.
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Post by AD257 Sun Nov 12, 2023 8:45 am

Thanks all for the further answers.
Yes I agree it’s a good point regarding the possible fault.  Bizarrely the wiring diagram in the manual is different to the 12v fuse table. For instance in the table fuse no4 - 10a is listed for the pumps, in the wiring diagram it shows fuse no3 - 7.5a. With fuse 4 for the 12v socket and TV. (There are no 7.5a fuses)
Nevertheless the 10a fuse is only listed as protecting the pump so I’ll try and check the wiring.
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Post by Caraman Sun Nov 12, 2023 11:25 am

AD257 wrote:Thanks all for the further answers.
Yes I agree it’s a good point regarding the possible fault.  Bizarrely the wiring diagram in the manual is different to the 12v fuse table. For instance in the table fuse no4 - 10a is listed for the pumps, in the wiring diagram it shows fuse no3 - 7.5a. With fuse 4 for the 12v socket and TV. (There are no 7.5a fuses)
Nevertheless the 10a fuse is only listed as protecting the pump so I’ll try and check the wiring.
They give as little information as possible and what they do give can be misleading.  I had to go through all my fuses to find what covers what.  On the EC700 table it says No 6 10A fuse Pumps (note plural).  The internal pump is on the No 6 fuse.  The only other pump is the external one that along with the Whale inlet socket is on the No 5 5A fused described as Appliances which could mean anything.  It doesn't mention the external water tank heaters which I confirmed by testing are also on the No 6 fuse.
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Post by glyne lock Sun Nov 12, 2023 12:02 pm

Ec500 fuse  if no4 is removed is the pump as per the ec500 paper work I have and no3 is the step[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
The wiring diagram I have posted this before so is here on a post Dbvwt also posted the wiring  .
Can you post a picture of the diagram you have
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Post by AD257 Sun Nov 12, 2023 12:17 pm

Here is the table and the wiring diagram from the Winchcombe manual.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.][/url]
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Post by AD257 Sun Nov 12, 2023 12:18 pm

Apologies, sent twice for some reason!!
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Post by glyne lock Sun Nov 12, 2023 12:56 pm

So the Lovely ❤ wiring by A/S now don’t show a fuse size no 3 has no feed coming out the pump comes from no 6 
This clearly shows the skill level on electrics by A/S as is incorrect and to no help 
So my book is not even the same[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Page 7-23 is the same as yours
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Post by Roopert Sun Nov 12, 2023 2:55 pm

I believe that part of the reason for the discrepancy is that there are essentially two sources of fuse information:

The first is that provided by Sargent, as a generic description of what they expect the circuit to be used for. And the second is a list made by the converter, showing what they have ~actually~ connected each fused circuit to. The former typically doesn't change, while the latter changes with time as the converter alters the design of the vehicle (for example where the availability of appliances changes over time).

I have something similar on my Celex, converted by Bilbos. There is a slight mismatch in the documentation between the original EC manual and the updated version as installed by Bilbos.
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Post by glyne lock Sun Nov 12, 2023 3:38 pm

the picture of the fuse number and rating I posted is sargent
this is the same picture in the A/S book posed by AD257
the wiring diagram picture from the A/S book shows incorrect information no out put wire ref number 3 fuse
the fuses are listed different
what the fuses are on my camper is what the book should say and clearly does not
if there was changes and 2 sources of fuse information as Roopert is saying the kemerton book for my camper should all say the same but does not as I have shown in the pictures
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Post by gassygassy Sun Nov 12, 2023 4:11 pm

I find all this incorrect documentation really really annoying. I used to write user manuals for new telecomms products. After I would finish one, I would go home for the weekend. Come back on Monday morning, set the product on the bench, open my instruction book at page 1 - normally the index, and check that what the instruction book said was what actually happened in the product.
Once I had the job of selecting a very expensive, very complex piece of test equipment. Only three companies in the world made them. I got all three in for evaluation. I opened the first box and took the tester out, opened the instruction book and did what it said. "Plug the XYZ123 tester into a 13A socket and switch it on".
Fair enough. I plugged it into a 13A socket and turned it on.
" Such and such a picture appears on the screen".
No. It doesn't.
I switched it off, repacked it and sent it back to the manufacturer. The tester cost the equivalent of a 4 bed detached executive house.
My Bourton which has an EC700, according to the owner's handbook has an EC500. I mean, just how incompetent can you get and still have a viable business?

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Post by gassygassy Sun Nov 12, 2023 4:15 pm

I would like to know who specifies the electrics, is it Sargent saying to A/S "here's a natty idea, why don't we have multicolour flashing lights in the washroom?" or is it A/S saying to Sargent "We will have multicolour flashing lights around the awning rim".
Who fits the wiring? Presumably that is in the A/S factory. Do they have a Sargent electrician there to explain the differences between the Sargent-produced documentation and the real wiring? Or does A/S just connect wires some time after they have worked out where they should start from and go to?

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Post by Roopert Sun Nov 12, 2023 4:27 pm

User manuals have been out of date for as long as I've had any involvement with A/S. Our 1983 Frisky had a typed Owner's Manual that was completely out of date when we got the van. Almost none of the equipment in my Flair was as specified in the manual (although some of that was because the original owners specified options that weren't even in the options list).

The thing is this: nobody buys a camper van on the basis of how up-to-date the user manual is!

So unless A/S employs a member of staff who's sole job it is to update the Owner's Manuals, they have to decide how much time someone spends on it. Rightly or wrongly, A/S (and Bilbos) do not put a high priority on it.

As I understand it, the EC systems are provided to A/S as pre-assembled and tested assembly, complete with wiring loom. The overall design is the responsibility of Sargent. That way they don't need to give every single installation a full test after it is complete. I believe that Bibos do exactly the same.
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Post by Paulmold Sun Nov 12, 2023 4:36 pm

If you go to the AS website and download the latest handbooks you will find they now only produce a generic handbook with only the cover and first 3 pages specifying either Campervan or Coachbuilt. The same handbook is used whether the base vehicle is Peugeot, Fiat or Mercedes (also stares Citroen , not that I've ever known them use Citroen in the last 20 years or so).

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
The handbooks are already out of date as they specify that a Thetford Absorption fridge is fitted when they now fit a Compression fridge in the Warwick and perhaps other models, I haven't checked those.

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Post by Monty-Plym Sun Nov 12, 2023 5:01 pm

A company like this should employ a Technical Author to produce quality in-house documentation, unfortunately the corporate machine does not see any value being added by producing accurate documentation and thus saves 30 - 40K a year + pension and other benefits which will no doubt go into the Directors' fat bonus.  Unfortunately, it will take a fatality that can be attributed to inaccurate instructions in the user manual to change this. If the Company was forward looking it would also welcome and reward any suggestion for improvements/innovations like many have demonstrated on this forum instead of acting like a sausage machine and get a spares web site designed so folk can easily find and order items.  British industry is pitiful and based on greed.

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Post by Peter Brown Sun Nov 12, 2023 5:22 pm

gassygassy wrote:I would like to know who specifies the electrics, is it Sargent saying to A/S "here's a natty idea, why don't we have multicolour flashing lights in the washroom?" or is it A/S saying to Sargent "We will have multicolour flashing lights around the awning rim".
Who fits the wiring? Presumably that is in the A/S factory. Do they have a Sargent electrician there to explain the differences between the Sargent-produced documentation and the real wiring? Or does A/S just connect wires some time after they have worked out where they should start from and go to?

I did this once, one fingered in the garage waiting for someone to arrive and then lost it - not time for a proper reply but briefly:

AS have an idea of a new model and the dealers feed in the facilities they would like incorporated. AS R&D build a prototype and when all are happy it is sent to Sargent for them to design the electrical installation. The electrical kits and looms are sent back with the van to R&D who install it. When all are happy with the operation CAD come and prepare manufacturing specs and drawings that the factory uses during build.

Handbooks were a lot better than thought and I refer to them regularly on AS website. The current ones are generic and not model specific so not great.
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Post by gassygassy Sun Nov 12, 2023 5:39 pm

Monty-Plym wrote:...... Unfortunately, it will take a fatality that can be attributed to inaccurate instructions in the user manual to change this. If the Company was forward looking it would also welcome and reward any suggestion for improvements/innovations like many have demonstrated on this forum .........
I don't know about a fatality but most of us here will remember when overhead cam belts first appeared. A solicitor bought a new Citroen car. He had it serviced at a Citroen dealer at the specified intervals. There was no specification for changing the cam belt. The cam belt snapped and the dealer said £x thousand for a new engine please. Solicitor said not on your nelly old mate, you'll do it free. Dealer said go forth and multiply so solicitor took them to court. Court decided that the solicitor had done everything he had been told to by the instruction book and dealer had to supply and fit a new engine. Maybe Citroen paid. As a result Citroen and all other car manufacturers suddenly halved the age / mileage for changing cam belts.
It's all very well having a generic owners manual, but my electrics chapter says I have got an EC500, where in fact I have an EC700. The wiring schematic bears no resemblance to reality. So why do they bother printing it? If they want a generic book, then it should have a chapter for each of the different wiring systems included. Then you could look up your chapter and ignore the rest. That would be acceptable.

Back to the fatality possibility, it may have been my current Bourton to cause that. The wardrobe light set the inside panel actually on fire, see photo attached. Looks to me a stage further than just a scorch mark. Also, I found sparks going on in a plug in the EC700 where the wiring was not done properly.[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Post by Robstopaz Sun Nov 12, 2023 7:52 pm

If fitting a Shurflo or similar, its worth also finding room for a Fiamma A20 Expansion tank to smooth out the water supply.  Rob
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