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Post by Toffee Sun Aug 15, 2021 7:49 pm

Having spent 10 minutes today of my life I will never get back, stuck behind a group of cyclists riding two abreast on a country road, I was helpless and didn’t know how to deal with this. I want to point out I ride a bicycle myself and adopt the attitude that if a car is behind me I’ll let them pass. This particular group couldn’t be passed safely due to the length of the group not leaving any gaps between themselves to allow passing a few at a time. I was dammed if I did and dammed if I didn’t so to speak.  There was no doubt they knew I was there, so  didn’t dare try the horn to warn them of my presence for fear of retribution. 
Does anyone actually know what the rules are for cyclists. Obviously as a driver of a car I have a responsibility not to put anyone in harms way but it felt like I was having my nose rubbed in it. The situation was only resolved when the cyclists went off in another direction. 
I was in a small car so it wasn’t the size of the motorhome causing the issue.
Didn’t want to create a post slagging cyclists off just wondered what the rules are. Not that I could have done anything other than what I did.
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Post by Guest Sun Aug 15, 2021 8:47 pm

They must obey the Highway Code but should also show due care and attention, and courtesy to other road users.

I cycle mostly by myself but often I feel much safer in a group. It’s a bit like the safety bubble described when learning to ride a motorbike.

Riding two abreast forces following drivers to wait for gaps in oncoming traffic before attempting to overtake. The option is to ride single file and risk being pushed into potholes or kerbs. The debris close to the edge of the road also causes punctures and potential to loose control. Leaving gaps cause cars to accelerate and brake into the gaps causing a more dangerous scenario.

I think a lot of cyclists are prone to giving themselves a bad rap, perhaps due to a bunker mentality.

I don’t really know that there is a straightforward solution other than something radical like miles and miles of dedicated cycle paths. You could find out who the bike club was and speak to someone to air your grievance, you might find they will listen and explain their point of view.
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Post by Peter Brown Sun Aug 15, 2021 9:10 pm

It's a bit like driving the van where there is limited clearance- drive in the middle so oncoming traffic has to slow / stop and then you sort yourself out. 

When I cycle with my group we pull over and let vehicles pass but in many cases there is not the clearance or the road surface is to dangerous to do that so we block the road till we can safely pull over - or try to , last year we had a member pushed into a ditch my an impatient driver.

That said I have witnessed 'serious' cycling clubs who feel they own the road and don't respect other traffic or pedestrians.
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Post by bikeralw Sun Aug 15, 2021 10:48 pm

Only ten minutes!
Coming home from the north east coast in the van we were stuck behind a group of about 20 cyclists at little over fast walking pace going up a winding road for almost 40 minutes... No safe places to pass whatsoever.
I have nothing against cyclists..., well yes, I do...
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Post by RML Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:49 am

Cyclists are encouraged to ride in pairs where the road is wide enough so cars have to make a definite overtake manoeuvre rather than squeezing past. 
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Post by BobK Mon Aug 16, 2021 9:00 am

How many times have you seen a cyclist on the roadway cycling along parallel to a dedicated, signposted cycle/pedestrian share pavement Whistle1 Whistle1   It seems its beneath them to use a cycle lane.
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Post by Kevinktwo Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:00 am

BobK wrote:How many times have you seen a cyclist on the roadway cycling along parallel to a dedicated, signposted cycle/pedestrian share pavement Whistle1 Whistle1   It seems its beneath them to use a cycle lane.
That would be me on shared pavement if I'm averaging above 10 miles/hour I move to the road to protect the pedestrians and me, if I am averaging below 10 mph I move to the shared path/cycleway as I feel the closing speed from the cars behind is to fast. However, it's partly because I have the right to do either. A bit like you in your motorhome choosing a B road as opposed to a motorway, all the data shows the motorway is much safer and you will be less likely to kill someone but you elect to choose what fits your mood.
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Post by Relaxez-Vous Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:29 am

Cyclepaths. What springs to mind is me cycling on the B3181 out of Exeter where there was a cyclepath adjacent to the main road. There were a series of side roads all with give way signs. If I'd cycled on the cyclepath I'd have had to stop and give way to any traffic on a side road wanting to join the B3181, and I'd have had to slow and look out for any vehicles turning off the main road. As it was I had priority cycling on the main road.

I've noticed when we've been in our motorhome in the Netherlands how cyclists were given more priority on the road and at junctions, in one instance when I wouldn't have expected it based upon my UK experience.
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Post by Cymro Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:24 pm

Relaxez-Vous wrote:
I've noticed when we've been in our motorhome in the Netherlands how cyclists were given more priority on the road and at junctions, in one instance when I wouldn't have expected it based upon my UK experience.
 Change is on its way here. The Government has just published the outcome of its consultation on revising (significantly, and especially as to the rights of cyclists) the Highway Code. See


https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/review-of-the-highway-code-to-improve-road-safety-for-cyclists-pedestrians-and-horse-riders/outcome/government-response-to-the-review-of-the-highway-code

Essentially, I think we'll be like the Netherlands: when a cyclist is involved in an accident with a superior vehicle (car, etc) then the cyclist will not be to blame.  Look out!

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Post by Weegie Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:10 pm

BobK wrote:How many times have you seen a cyclist on the roadway cycling along parallel to a dedicated, signposted cycle/pedestrian share pavement Whistle1 Whistle1   It seems its beneath them to use a cycle lane.

In addition to what others have said about this, I'll offer the following.

In Glasgow, one of our main East / West arteries has one of your dedicated cycle paths. However, every week, the road sweeper machines come along and their swirling brushes clear all manner of rubbish off the road. However, a substantial proportion of that rubbish ends up in the cycle lane - litter, rocks, broken glass, you name it. But you can't see that from a vehicle - all you can see is a cyclist on the road beside a cycle lane. 

If I could use the cycle lane without having to repair a puncture every 50 yards, I would.
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Post by HairyFool Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:58 pm

BobK wrote:How many times have you seen a cyclist on the roadway cycling along parallel to a dedicated, signposted cycle/pedestrian share pavement Whistle1 Whistle1   It seems its beneath them to use a cycle lane.

I used to wonder about that on one our main roads in town as cyclist were frequently in the road. Having now ridden that path I understand. It has been so badly laid it is like riding a roller coaster.

Another road with a similar problem happens to be a very long hill. With cyclists easily able to reach 30mph it is not a good idea to be too near pedestrians who can change direction in the blink of an eye.
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Post by Suppersready Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:32 pm

I fully understand the reason for two abreast and agree this is probably the safest way to navigate certain roads. However what is nothing short of selfish arrogance is when you follow behind patiently for miles passing suitable pull in areas where the cyclists could let you pass, and these aren’t rare occurrences.
I have nothing against cyclists ..... well I do some of them.

As an aside I think they should all pay road/vehicle tax as well ... views ?




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Post by groundhog Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:56 pm

I don't think anyone should pay road tax. Just put another few pence tax on fuel and scrap the whole wasteful system.

Bikes can go for free then and electric milk floats.
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Post by Weegie Mon Aug 16, 2021 7:36 pm

Suppersready wrote:... an aside I think they should all pay road/vehicle tax as well ... views? 

Well, it was just a matter of time before this hoary old chestnut was mentioned.

There is no such thing as road tax, and there hasn't been for years. You pay Vehicle Excise Duty which is based on your vehicle's emissions. So, even if cycles were subject to VED, they'd be zero rated, just like an electric car. But you probably knew that.

VED goes in to the general taxation pot, it is in no way ring fenced for spending on roads and /or transport. So, any cyclist who pays tax, pays for the roads too - each according to their ability. But again, you probably knew that.
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Post by Weegie Mon Aug 16, 2021 7:40 pm

groundhog wrote:I don't think anyone should pay road tax. Just put another few pence tax on fuel and scrap the whole wasteful system.

Absolutely.

That way if you drive 10's of thousands of miles per year in a gas guzzler (Peugeot Boxer?) you pay the most. Granny in her Fiat 500 going shopping once per week, pays far less.

You also save Government expenditure by scrapping the separate VED collection system.

May need some sort of tweaking to support the freight industry, but, that shouldn't be difficult.
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Post by PLOUGHLIN Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:02 pm

Weegie wrote:
Suppersready wrote:... an aside I think they should all pay road/vehicle tax as well ... views? 

Well, it was just a matter of time before this hoary old chestnut was mentioned.

There is no such thing as road tax, and there hasn't been for years. You pay Vehicle Excise Duty which is based on your vehicle's emissions. So, even if cycles were subject to VED, they'd be zero rated, just like an electric car. But you probably knew that.

VED goes in to the general taxation pot, it is in no way ring fenced for spending on roads and /or transport. So, any cyclist who pays tax, pays for the roads too - each according to their ability. But again, you probably knew that.

As announced by Osbourne in 2015 budget, as of 2020 VED is ring fenced for Major and Strategic roads construction.

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Post by Weegie Mon Aug 16, 2021 9:00 pm

I wasn't aware of that, however, that's "major and strategic roads" - not many cyclists on them, perhaps. 

However, VED was expected to raise £6.5bn in 2019/20 according to the Office of Budget Responsibility.

https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/tax-by-tax-spend-by-spend/vehicle-excise-duty/

This is dwarfed by the total spending on roads of £11bn in 2020/21.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/298667/united-kingdom-uk-public-sector-expenditure-national-roads/

(I realise the fiscal periods are different, however, the values should still be reasonable for comparison.)

So, my point still stands, anyone who pays tax, pays for the roads.


Last edited by Weegie on Mon Aug 16, 2021 9:05 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Additional info)
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Post by RogerThat Mon Aug 16, 2021 9:27 pm

RML wrote:Cyclists are encouraged to ride in pairs where the road is wide enough 

By whom?
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Post by Weegie Mon Aug 16, 2021 9:46 pm

Rule 66 of The Highway Code, if not actually encouraging it, definitely does not discourage it.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/rules-for-cyclists-59-to-82

Here's an interesting article that addresses the issue, and the impending changes, from the cyclists point of view. 

https://www.cyclinguk.org/blog/why-highway-code-should-protect-riding-two-abreast
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Post by Suppersready Mon Aug 16, 2021 9:56 pm

Weegie wrote:
Suppersready wrote:... an aside I think they should all pay road/vehicle tax as well ... views? 

Well, it was just a matter of time before this hoary old chestnut was mentioned.

There is no such thing as road tax, and there hasn't been for years. You pay Vehicle Excise Duty which is based on your vehicle's emissions. So, even if cycles were subject to VED, they'd be zero rated, just like an electric car. But you probably knew that.

VED goes in to the general taxation pot, it is in no way ring fenced for spending on roads and /or transport. So, any cyclist who pays tax, pays for the roads too - each according to their ability. But again, you probably knew that.

Ok it’s not road tax or vehicle tax .... it’s just a tax shrugg ..... and it’s not just based on emissions either it can also be based on the new cost of the vehicle ( just to be precise ).
Perhaps bikes costing under £100 could be free and all others contribute ... maybe horses too scratch head



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Post by Weegie Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:07 pm

Or perhaps we could base it on horse power? 

On a cycle, I can sustain about 0.3hp over a long ride. Your motorhome will be somewhere between 110 and 180hp,depending on the engine variant. So you need to pay 366 times the VED that I do. What rates shall we set?

Or, alternatively, as I've demonstrated above, we could accept that all taxpayers pay for the roads already, irrespective of their mode of transport.
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Post by Suppersready Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:15 pm

Weegie wrote:Or perhaps we could base it on horse power? 

On a cycle, I can sustain about 0.3hp over a long ride. Your motorhome will be somewhere between 110 and 180hp,depending on the engine variant. So you need to pay 366 times the VED that I do. What rates shall we set?

I hope not, at 485hp the cost for my car would be more eye wateringly expensive than it is already !




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Post by HairyFool Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:41 pm

110 to 180 lol4

I wish!!   hugegrins
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Post by BobK Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:10 am

While on the subject of duty etc.  should cyclists have third party insurance ??
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Post by Suppersready Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:19 am

BobK wrote:While on the subject of duty etc.  should cyclists have third party insurance ??

Absolutely ….




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