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PEUGEOT TPMS ADJUSTMENT

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Post by Caraman on Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:10 pm

Some Peugeot dealers have adjusted the Boxer’s TPMS to allow lower pressures recommended by the tyre manufacturer to be used but others have stuck to the direction given below by Peugeot UK which was printed in the April 2020 MMM:
 
The TPMS comes pre-set from the factory to the standard commercial vehicle specification. Convertors can work with tyre manufacturers to determine what lower pressures the tyre can safely be run at when the conversion is complete and can have the TPMS modified to this by the Peugeot technician as part of the pre-delivery inspection. The converter would then fit a new sticker over the Peugeot label on the passenger B pillar denoting the new pressures. For safety reasons we do not amend the tyre pressure within a dealership unless the above protocol has been followed. 
 
Earlier this month I contacted Peugeot UK’s homologation engineer [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].  Initially he stated:
 
…. as the vehicle has been converted by Auto-Sleepers, you will need to discuss your concern with them directly. We cannot permit a lower tyre pressure value, this is something that Auto-Sleepers and the tyre manufacturer must discuss. If it is permitted, written confirmation must be obtained before the values can be changed in the ECU.
 
Auto-Sleepers would not provide ‘written confirmation’ as they have not worked with Continental to determine what lower tyre pressures should be used and, as UK type approval has already been granted by the VCA and the vehicle registered, they say it is too late for the tyre pressure label to be changed.  As a result, Peugeot UK’s homologation engineer changed his statement:
 
To clarify, Automobiles Peugeot hold the European type approval for the base vehicle. The vehicle has then undergone conversion and is then type approved and registered against the Auto-Sleepers type approval.  The type approval is used for defining the vehicle at the point of registration. Anything that is done post registration has to satisfy the legislation in force in the member state ie fitting accessories such as wheels/tyres, navigation systems etc.  Automobiles Peugeot cannot authorise the different tyre pressures as the declared pressures were obtained in conjunction with the tyre manufacturer based on the base vehicle. If the tyre manufacturer, with the information and knowledge of the completed vehicle, has indicated that the vehicle is safe to run at different pressures, then written confirmation will be required from them that can then be presented to an authorised repairer who can then adjust the set values.
 
Auto-Sleepers declined to obtain the ‘written conformation’ so I approached Continental for it.  Continental UK’s General Manager of Technical Services happily provided the following statement based on detail I provided which included that my front axle mass cannot exceed 1500 kg without the rear axle and vehicle MTPLMs being exceeded:
 
The front TPMS should be set as if the plated front tyre pressure is 3.4 bar rather than 5 bar.  This correlates with an actual front axle mass of 1500 kg with a degree of uneven loading across the axle.  This should then ensure optimum handling, stability and front traction performance.
 
A local dealer has now adjusted my front TPMS so it does not trigger at 3.0 bar and above.  They charged £45 labour plus VAT = £54.  Another dealer was going to charge much more than this.
 
Peugeot UK’s homologation engineer advised that the exercise is repeated if a different brand or type of tyre is fitted and that the insurance company is informed of any change to the TPMS.
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Post by Roopert on Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:18 pm

I know this doesn't help you at all, but surely there is something seriously wrong at Peugeot, if other manufacturers such as Mercedes and VW are able to factory fit TPMS to their commercial vehicles that the driver can set to any value they want?

It's almost as though they are choosing to be difficult and uncooperative on this issue.
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Post by inspiredron on Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:35 pm

Moderators - this deserves to go into the factsheet section please.

Well done with your persistence Caraman

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Post by marconi on Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:34 pm

Roopert wrote:I know this doesn't help you at all, but surely there is something seriously wrong at Peugeot, if other manufacturers such as Mercedes and VW are able to factory fit TPMS to their commercial vehicles that the driver can set to any value they want?

It's almost as though they are choosing to be difficult and uncooperative on this issue.

It does on the face of it look like Peugeot are being awkward. However its the type of TPMS adjustment procedure that is just different. As Caraman says finally Peugeot have relented and seen sense in the light of the statement from Continental.

The fault lies squarely with Auto-Sleepers who choose not to follow the procedures required probably due to lack of expertise and due to the cost of proper approval. Not my words but those of the Head of the VCA whom I was in conference with today.

The problem is Converters are not obliged to follow the Second Stage Approval procedure as long as they stay within the bounds of the First Stage Approval.

Legally once the vehicle has been approved then the Tyre Pressure Label applied at Stage one is the legally correct tyre pressure.

I put it forward that the 5 bar Front pressure was overinflated and unsafe, he agreed. Further I asked what if the Stage 2 process had been carried out fully and the Continental recommended pressure label was applied for say 3.4 bar Front and I was stopped and found to be running the tyres at 5 bar would I be breaking the law.
The answer is yes. He agreed that this beggars belief that people and a shortfall in the procedure can alter a safety critical setting, so forcing me to run on unsafe tyre pressures, but says that that is the way it is and cannot be changed retrospectively without a new regulations.

He says if you have the TPMS adjusted even by Peugeot without a change of the official tyre pressure label there are legal and insurance concerns to be considered.

There is one way left which could bring about a change which he recommended. He said that all those effected should report the problem to the DVSA using the report form here. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

One or two complaints would not be sufficient, but if there were a number of complaints it could be handled under the Vehicle Re Call procedure.

Owners who feel that the Vehicle handling stability etc. is effected by the over inflated tyre pressures can mention this on the form.
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Post by Roopert on Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:05 am

marconi wrote:
The fault lies squarely with Auto-Sleepers

I don't entirely agree with that. If VW can implement a system that requires just one button on the dash to set the TPMS, then Peugeot could do the same, at minimal cost.

Previous posts on the subject suggest that it's an Indirect system. If so, the functions will already have been built into the ABS controller by Bosch, Valeo or whoever manufactures it. On a T5 it requires no more than one monetary action switch and one wire (I know this because I retro-fitted the factory option to mine). Everything else is already there, built into the ABS controller.

IMO there is no good reason for Peugeot to design their commercial vehicles to be so user-hostile.
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Post by Caraman on Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:15 am

Roopert wrote:
marconi wrote:
The fault lies squarely with Auto-Sleepers

I don't entirely agree with that. If VW can implement a system that requires just one button on the dash to set the TPMS, then Peugeot could do the same, at minimal cost.

Previous posts on the subject suggest that it's an Indirect system. If so, the functions will already have been built into the ABS controller by Bosch, Valeo or whoever manufactures it. On a T5 it requires no more than one monetary action switch and one wire (I know this because I retro-fitted the factory option to mine). Everything else is already there, built into the ABS controller.

IMO there is no good reason for Peugeot to design their commercial vehicles to be so user-hostile.
The TPMS is a direct system i.e. it has sensors in each wheel that send pressure and possibly temperature signals to the TPMS receiver.  When the TPMS is triggered due to low pressure it is possible to see the pressure it was triggered at.  It is not an indirect system that works through the ABS that utilises small variations in tyre circumference caused by changes in the tyre's pressure.  

I believe that direct TPMSs that can be adjusted by the driver are available but the one fitted as an optional extra (about £200) to Peugeot Boxers, Citroen Relays and Fiat Ducatos in the factory in Italy is not one of them.  IMO it is not Peugeot/Citroen/Fiat who are at fault, it is the regulations that are at fault which should make it mandatory for all TPMSs to be adjustable by the driver so that the driver can vary the tyre pressures according to load and the tyre manufacturer's recommendations.  

In defence of Peugeot/Citroen/Fiat they will adjust the TPMS for the converter if the converter asks them to do so as part of the Stage 2 type approval and as a result fits a new tyre pressure label.  Bailey has done this and after extensive testing with the tyre manufacturer reduced the plated front tyre pressure from 5.0 bar to 50 psi and had the TPMS adjusted by Peugeot.  Auto-Sleepers like many other converters has not done this because it would appear that the regulations do not require them to.  IMO, once again it is the regulations that are at fault.  

When I discussed this with the CAMC they said the fault was with the converter and it is very widespread.  They suggested I took it up with the NCC which I did but their response was it was it is a matter between Peugeot, Auto-Sleepers and the VCA.  They did however say "all vehicles are plated with the tyre pressure for the maximum load that the vehicle can carry and it will be the drivers’ responsibility to vary this pressure if they wish to use the vehicle in an unloaded condition. Well its a bit difficult to comply with this if the the TPMS doesn't allow the pressure to be varied!

IMO this is a farcical and dangerous situation that requires urgent regulatory change.  I have expressed this view to the DoT through the DVSA and VCA and will continue to do so until change is made.  I urge others to do likewise.
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Post by marconi on Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:19 am

The Peugeot Chassis has been built, whether they consider it a better system if the TPMS is not user adjustable we don't know, but it cannot be changed.

Discussion about the design and what other Manufactures do on this thread is of no help to those of us who are trapped in a never ending saga.
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Post by marconi on Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:01 am

Thanks Caraman. Yes the Regulations are at fault. The Head of the VCA agrees. However due to naivety or whatever with the introduction of TPMS Auto-Sleeper have found a loophole in the regulations that allow them to get VCA approval for Conversions and quote the dangerous tyre pressures which are on the Peugeot Stage 1 Label.

Auto-Sleeper are well aware of the need for a Stage 2 Tyre Pressure Label and have fitted them in the past. This represents a total disregard for customer safety.

My Conference for an hour with the Chief Technical and Statutory Operations Officer of the VCA was brought about by my Member of Parliament and contact with the Chief Eexceutive of the VCA.
It is the result of 18 months of enquiries with the relative departments. The first 12 months being wasted by Auto-Sleepers false promises and delaying tactics, ensuring me that the situation was being dealt with.

A reply in August 2020 from Auto-Sleepers CEO was nothing but the usual rudeness and gave a closure statement.
This is what was needed to present a case to the National Caravan Council. It was obvious from their replies that they knew the situation and they were not prepared to get involved. 

All official bodies give evasive contradictory replies and now we know why, they can do nothing about it and I sensed embarrassment.

The Chief Executive of the VCA also recommends contacting the DVSA via the form HERE:- [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


Last edited by marconi on Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:56 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : smelling and tunctupation)
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Post by Libraryman2 on Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:10 am

I lowered my tyre pressures on the front to 3.7 bar....without them going into alarm.....however after 1 cold night in France the left TPS triggered..(low pressure)
I decided to increase the pressures back up..to get rid of the pesky alarm...that went well....not.

I pulled into two garages but the air lines only catered for cars...that left me worse off....with both TPS triggering now!!

Anyway..eventually found a good air line and put them back up to 5.5 bar...the TPS alarm reset immediately..no need to run around...

So now I’ve lowered them to 4 bar....hopefully they will stay there...the front axle weight is 1620 kgs

Im not sure if that front axle weight means I’m wrongly setting front tyres lower than the 5.5 bar but it is more comfortable...the rear are at 5.5 bar 80psi...

Michelin agilis 16 inch 

Ray
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Post by roli on Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:16 am

Now posted on Factsheets
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Post by marconi on Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:18 am

Libraryman2

Ray your front axle weight is a lot higher than us poor Nuevo owners.  smile!

Fill in the form, state your case, there are no penalties for anyone, only the chance of getting this sorted out legally via a Re Call Procedure and the VCA have recommended this action.
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Post by Caraman on Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:55 am

Libraryman2 wrote:I lowered my tyre pressures on the front to 3.7 bar....without them going into alarm.....however after 1 cold night in France the left TPS triggered..(low pressure)
I decided to increase the pressures back up..to get rid of the pesky alarm...that went well....not.

I pulled into two garages but the air lines only catered for cars...that left me worse off....with both TPS triggering now!!

Anyway..eventually found a good air line and put them back up to 5.5 bar...the TPS alarm reset immediately..no need to run around...

So now I’ve lowered them to 4 bar....hopefully they will stay there...the front axle weight is 1620 kgs

Im not sure if that front axle weight means I’m wrongly setting front tyres lower than the 5.5 bar but it is more comfortable...the rear are at 5.5 bar 80psi...

Michelin agilis 16 inch 

Ray
Ray,
I believe your Corinium has bigger CP tyres than the Nuevo/Broadway, a higher rated front axle (2100 kg instead of 1850 kg) with a front plated tyre pressure of 5.5 bar rather than 5.0 bar.  On my Nuevo before having the TPMS adjusted I could get the front tyre pressures down from 5.0 bar to about 4.3 bar without triggering but much below that it triggered.  It was necessary to re-inflate to the plated pressure and run the tyre for a short distance to reset the TPMS after it was triggered.  For a while I did run with a permanently triggered TPMS on both front tyres but this meant I no longer had an effective TPMS.  Although it showed the offending low pressures every time I turned on the ignition, these were the hot pressures recorded when the vehicle was last run so of absolutely no use.  I guess this is the same for all TPMSs that show the pressure as the sensors will only activate when the wheels are turning and maybe then not immediately.
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Post by marconi on Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:18 am

Caraman wrote :-
IMO this is a farcical and dangerous situation that requires urgent regulatory change.  I have expressed this view to the DoT through the DVSA and VCA and will continue to do so until change is made.  I urge others to do likewise.


Me too but its no good telling the DVSA, or the VCA they know its farcical that they can only ask Manufacturers to carry out a process which is safety critical.


Up to now my MP has only been concerned with my personal problem I shall now pressure him for Regulatory change. Only the Government can change Regulations. There will be no change this side of the UK leaving the EU, the current Regulations are EU ones, and even if they considered it urgent we know how long things take.


If the Regulations were changed tomorrow it would do us no good.

I shall keep repeating our only course of action open to us :-

CLICK HERE :- [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Once on the Page, Select the Form by pressing the Report a defect shown below.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Post by Roopert on Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:20 am

marconi wrote:
Discussion about the design and what other Manufactures do on this thread is of no help to those of us who are trapped in a never ending saga.

While that may be true for those of you that are having to endure this ridiculous situation, it may help other people to avoid it by pointing out that other manufacturers have solved exactly the same problem in a more user friendly fashion.

In my opinion it is unfair on A/S to say that "the fault lies squarely with Auto-Sleepers" when quite clearly a better implementation by Peugeot would make the problem go away completely.

So... pointing out that other manufacturers have been able to solve the problem in a sensible way may not help you - but it may help others when deciding whether to buy a Peugeot-based motorhome or not.


Last edited by Roopert on Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:11 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Speling)
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Post by Libraryman2 on Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:41 am

Thanks for the comments all, I’ll fill out the form.

Ray
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Post by Cymro on Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:44 pm

Excellent work, especially by Caraman and Marconi, to whom we are all much indebted.

I have this morning reported the defect using the form. I suggested that, pending a change in the regulations to plug the lacuna, temporary non-statutory guidance be issued to Stage 2 converters.

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Post by marconi on Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:55 pm

Cymro wrote:Excellent work, especially by Caraman and Marconi, to whom we are all much indebted.

I have this morning reported the defect using the form. I suggested that, pending a change in the regulations to plug the lacuna, temporary non-statutory guidance be issued to Stage 2 converters.

Cymro

Well done Cymro the more the better.

The temporary non statutory guidance has already taken place in the form of verbal suggestions they didn't seem very confident that any action would result, but you never know.

Personally I would much prefer a big hammer.
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Post by Cymro on Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:10 pm

marconi wrote:
Personally I would much prefer a big hammer.

Sure - but it'll take the authorities a long time to lift it! 
Meanwhile, surely they can nudge the slowcoaches to catch up Bailey etc.

Fingers crossed!

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Post by inspiredron on Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:40 am

roli wrote:Now posted on Factsheets
roli
Thanks Roli  up!

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Post by Caraman on Sat Oct 31, 2020 3:22 pm

Peugeot UK’s homologation engineer advised that the exercise is repeated if a different brand or type of tyre is fitted and that the insurance company is informed of any change to the TPMS.

My insurance company had no issue over the change to my TPMS and nor should they as it made the motorhome safer and therefore reduced their exposure to risk.
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Post by Steve928 on Sat Oct 31, 2020 5:11 pm

Hi folks - I've just signed up just to let you know that programming of the TPMS is now possible using the AlfaOBD Android app or Windows software.
Some of us over on the Bailey Owners Facebook group have been working on this.
I've written a document about the kit required and the process involved. 
You are able to adjust the stored pressures at will using your phone and the AlfaOBD app..

As a new member I can't post a link to the document but I could send it someone who could, or post it in 7 days time.
Steve


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Post by marconi on Sat Oct 31, 2020 5:13 pm

Caraman wrote:Peugeot UK’s homologation engineer advised that the exercise is repeated if a different brand or type of tyre is fitted and that the insurance company is informed of any change to the TPMS.

My insurance company had no issue over the change to my TPMS and nor should they as it made the motorhome safer and therefore reduced their exposure to risk.

That's re-assuring.

The assertion from the Head Engineer at the VCA that the Tyre Pressure Label is the Law needs investigating. I can find no information, everyone involved has got themselves into a right mess on this and has to try pushing conflicting information on us, to see if we buy it, in order to worm their way out and pass us on to someone else.

I have hit a brick wall as far as pressing for legislation change personally. My MP is unable to raise anything in the House because he is a Government Minister.

It now needs another Owner, or several to present a well written case to their MP who is not a Minister. They can then raise it in the House.

Another thing that gets action in this country is getting the BBC Watchdog Program to take it up, if anyone fancies an appearance.
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Post by marconi on Sat Oct 31, 2020 5:29 pm

Hi Steve 928 welcome to the Forum

We thought that Bailey completed the Stage 2 process properly so that is interesting. Thanks for coming in on it.

Can you send PM's yet on here, if so you can send it to me for posting.

One problem that the VCA warned me about was. 'If you do it yourself or get an independent Garage, (non Peugeot Dealership) to do it then it would not be within the Law and you would not be Insured'.

Please don't shoot the messenger, it seems odd if VCA would rather propagate the problem than get it out of their hair. They will sure get it back if that's the case.
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Post by Steve928 on Sat Oct 31, 2020 5:51 pm

Thanks. It seems that I need 3 posts to be able to PM so here is post [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].
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Post by Steve928 on Sat Oct 31, 2020 5:54 pm

Post [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. I've no opinion on the legality of DIY programming, although as the TPMS isn't yet mandatory on this class of vehicle personally I have no issue with adjusting my own TPMS to my own desired values. I should now be able PM you, hopefully..
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