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How much Payload

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How much Payload Empty How much Payload

Post by gemdeco on Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:24 pm

Hi
     I am looking to downsize to a MH under 3500kg, advice on what I could consider to be the minimum payload in KG's I could get away with for 2 people, Mainly Clothes ,Food ,two chairs,
     ""gas bottles (2 x 6KG)(may change to lightweight),Fresh Water, 1 person 75kg"" are allowed for, anything essentials I have forgotten.Looking at new MH tomorrow left it a bit late to ask. Wishing you all Well
Regards
Alan


Last edited by gemdeco on Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:07 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : rewording question)
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Post by Paramedic on Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:02 pm

Definitely under or perhaps up to 3500kg? Admit the Broadway had negative review with regard to user payload of just 305kg when AS replaced it over the Cotswold back in 2013. Initially we were concerned about the likely overloading of our van with all the clobber, foodstuffs, two ebikes and the more recently acquired Kampa 330XL Rally Pro Air Awning. Surprisingly, the weigh bridge recorded under 3500kg loading of 3460kg with axle weights under the maximum. The reason for this is because we don't carry fresh water so giving ourselves an extra 100kg payload. If course this method is not for everyone but it works for us with our 7.16m coachbuild

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Post by gemdeco on Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:06 pm

Hi Paramedic
       So how many KG's payload do you reckons you need excluding the E-Bikes and awning
Regards
Alan
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:42 pm

On the basis that all 4 berth UK built caravans have about 150 to 160kg of payload as standard, and a lot are used quite happily by couple, then around that amount plus any fresh or waste water you usually carry (at 1kg per litre) and the weight of the driver and passenger minus the 75kg allowance built in, would form a minimum. Then if you have a big dog/dogs, special equipment, normally carry bikes or awnings, plus, say, a 10% allowance for all the stuff that we often forget. That should be what you're aiming for.
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Post by Paramedic on Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:50 pm

Hi Alan, if I understand your question correctly, minus the two bikes at 22kg each, the awning at 23 would save total of 67kg. So if you take the weigh bridge reading of 3460 less then 67, on that occasion, the van weight would have been 3393kg but take in mind the fresh water tank (105 litre capacity) was empty. If the tank was full, 3393 plus 105 = 3498 = the MTPLM. When acquiring the van, we didn't take to mind the user payload and the consequences of possible overloading. There's been mention of manufacturers producing van's with MTPLM of 3500kg with regard to one's licence restrictions. Also A/S build quality tends to be more weighty where other makes have less weight so more payload. Suppose it's all down to who and what you put in your van. Hope this makes sense. Regards.


Last edited by Paramedic on Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:02 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Poor maths)

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Post by Paramedic on Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:07 pm

Apologies, should have been 105 kg capacity, not 205 so has been edited.

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Post by Gromit on Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:39 am

Hi Alan

Can't give you an accurate figure, but we manage quite easily with a 3500kg rated Nuevo.

Loaded up with full tanks of diesel and water, plus electric bikes and clobber for three weeks in France, we were still under the limit at the weighbridge.

(The dog wasn't with us, but she's only 8kg - unlike Andy's lovely mutts who weigh more than he does!!  lol4)
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Post by gemdeco on Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:54 am

Hi 
   I am looking at changing to a Knaus T1plus 700LF. We camp on wet fields and tow a trailer so wait for it we are looking at the 4 x 4 version but with a towbar as well we only have 73kgs left, so it is tight
Regards
Alan
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:09 am

gemdeco wrote:Hi 
   I am looking at changing to a Knaus T1plus 700LF. We camp on wet fields and tow a trailer so wait for it we are looking at the 4 x 4 version but with a towbar as well we only have 73kgs left, so it is tight
Regards
Alan

How do you reach that 73kg Alan? Have you allowed for the noseweight of the trailer which becomes part of the van's payload?
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:22 am

I've had a quick shufti at the Kkkkkknauss website and found the van in question, along with its basic payload of 485kg. I even found the 4x4 options but they made no mention of the weight penalty that 4x4 or indeed a change in powerplant/gearbox would present. Presumably they are heavier and therefore reduce the available payload but I couldn't see where that info was available.
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:27 am

And for that very rude gentleman from Worcs  hugegrins I'll have you know that 14 year old Jack  is but a shadow of his former self at 21kg and the lovely Miss Pippin is a healthy 24kg. Regrettably I remain at a not so healthy 106kg and I blame a certain gentleman's bread and butter pudding for my decline.
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Post by IanH on Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:33 am

There really is only one sure way to find out.
3/4 fill water, full diesel, full toilet flush + you
Then take it to a weighbridge to be weighed.
Difference between that figure and 3500Kg is what you can add.

To give an idea, when ours is ready for a 3 week trip (we only take enough for one week) it weighs circa 3200Kg, that's clothes food wifey etc etc in that figure
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Post by gemdeco on Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:08 pm

Hi Everyone
      Thank you all for your help and advice, we went and looked at the MH, It was very well finished but just too small for us, so keep looking if only AS would modernise and improve quality control. As for additional weight is is surprising how it adds up e.g. 4x4 system 152kg        
         additional battery system   26kg
                             spare wheel  37kg 
                             tow bar        50kg
                             awning        39kg
Soon adds up so I am still looking for an up to 3500kg coachbuilt with a fixed bed preferred rear wheel drive
Regards
Alan
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:42 pm

Looks like you forgot the noseweight of your trailer in that calculation Alan.

Your little lot adds up to 304kg, add in say 75kg for a passenger, 25kg for the trailer noseweight and you're up to 404kg, with just about 80kg left before going over 3500kg and not a stick of cutlery, clothing or bedding on board. 

If you want something bigger then it'll likely weigh more and mean a lower available payload. Possibly time to reassess priorities.
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Post by bolero boy on Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:54 am

if you tow a trailer, youre unlikely to have payload issues, just stick al, the heavy stuff in the trailer.
whats the trailer for?

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Post by steamdrivenandy on Sat Jun 13, 2020 10:04 am

bolero boy wrote:if you tow a trailer, youre unlikely to have payload issues, just stick al, the heavy stuff in the trailer.
whats the trailer for?

The only things on Alan's list that could realistically be put in a trailer are the awning and maybe the spare wheel. That might bring the available payload to about the same as a two berth caravan gets using NCC guidelines, providing the water tanks are empty.
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Post by bolero boy on Sat Jun 13, 2020 10:45 am

we dont know why Alan has a trailer at all, so we dont know what he carries in it.
there are many things that could be bagged/boxed and put in a trailer to save weight in a van....books, maps, electrical items, ramps, hoses, cables, even outdoor coats/boots if required.

however, by far the best thing would be to get a van with sufficient payload....the thing is, 4x4 vans at 3.5t are rare, expensive and heavy.

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Post by steamdrivenandy on Sat Jun 13, 2020 11:20 am

Taking Alan's list plus passenger and trailer noseweight gives a payload requirement of around 400kg. Add in 100 litres of fresh water and the capacity to haul say 80kg of waste water gives a payload requirement of 580kg, plus, say, 200kg of normal 'stuff' and you're up to 780kg. Take that off a 3500kg gross weight van and you're looking for a MIRO of 2,700kg to start with. The current Symbol MIRO is listed as 2,850kg,  the Nuevo ES is 2,874kg and presumably everything else in the A/S range is heavier. Other brands are likely to be similar, given a large part of the weight is the chassis cab which are mostly identical.
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Post by Milvus on Sat Jun 13, 2020 11:24 am

Alan, here’s a quick comparison of the differing payloads available on the current AS range. 


AS under 3500kg Payload :


Bourton : 520Kg
Nuevo ES : 514 Kg
Broadway EB TB LP : 481 Kg
Broadway EB : 469 Kg
Stanton : 354 Kg
Broadway : EK 369 Kg
Broadway : FB 338 Kg


AS Gloucester : 420 Kg / Knaus T1 Plus 700F : 465 Kg




Looking at the payload figures alone, there’s a clear winner there. If you could accommodate the layout, would the Mercedes Bourton fit your needs ? The layout works for us, and we are more than happy with it. Might be an option for you, and offering a significant increase in 100Kg payload over your current Gloucester.

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Post by Peter Brown on Sat Jun 13, 2020 11:42 am

A friend replaced her 2002 Talisman with a Bourton and decided to weigh items as the were stored in the new van. The result was a reduction of about 50% of what used to be carried all the time - just in case!
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:03 pm

I've developed a fairly cynical view of motorhoming. You buy a van and start equipping it and, egged on by the accessory industry, you keep going adding more and more stuff, most of which gets used very rarely, if at all and certainly couldn't be classified as essential. Then you realise that you can't fit it all in, either through space or weight. And what do you do? Well common sense would say 'take less stuff, but no, you've been brainwashed, or have brainwashed yourself and you go and buy a bigger van. And the cycle repeats itself.

My mantra, for the last few years, has been 'less is more' or 'small is beautiful' or maybe 'just stop buying stuff and enjoy what you have'.
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Post by gemdeco on Sat Jun 13, 2020 5:25 pm

Hi
    To be honest I do not think we take a lot of extra's with us, we have taken the Fiamma box off the back, the bikes we rarely take with us so I have not counted them. We do cook most meals , eat and wash in the MH, so we need pots and pans, we have two fairly heavy outside chairs, I carry a tyre pump ,a couple of odd tools and that is about it. As the the mention of an AS Bourton, we started off with an AS Surrey same layout almost and did not like the end kitchen by the door a bit cramped. My wife has seen a Burstner Lyseo Harmony TD680 that she likes but the fittings seem cheap and I do not really want a Fiat Auto so I must keep looking
Regards
Alan
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Post by bolero boy on Sat Jun 13, 2020 5:49 pm

the new Fiat auto is a torque converter box and a mile away from the robotised Comfortmatic....ive driven one, smooth as molasses...

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Post by steamdrivenandy on Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:29 pm

gemdeco wrote:Hi
    To be honest I do not think we take a lot of extra's with us, we have taken the Fiamma box off the back, the bikes we rarely take with us so I have not counted them. We do cook most meals , eat and wash in the MH, so we need pots and pans, we have two fairly heavy outside chairs, I carry a tyre pump ,a couple of odd tools and that is about it. As the the mention of an AS Bourton, we started off with an AS Surrey same layout almost and did not like the end kitchen by the door a bit cramped. My wife has seen a Burstner Lyseo Harmony TD680 that she likes but the fittings seem cheap and I do not really want a Fiat Auto so I must keep looking
Regards
Alan

It's taken them an awfully long time but Fiat are, at last, offering a decent automatic gearbox on Ducato's, which is more than PSA are doing with the Boxer. 

As I've said before I suspect an average two person motorhomer, without special hobby gear etc, has about 150 to 160kg of stuff. Add in another 100kg for passenger and the driver's weight above the 75kg allowance, plus towbar, etc plus plus an allowance for a full fresh water and waste water tank, because you never know and that's the sort of payload you need. Forget 4x4 and if you really do get stuck often think all weather tyres and add a winch into the payload allowance.
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Post by Lancy on Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:04 pm

We have never weighed the MH....we have always had 4 berth as that is what we find comfy for 2 adults and 2 large dogs. The only extra gear of any weight has been an awning. We were more conscious when we had a caravan but only in the sense of what we travelled with in the car V caravan.  Have we been neglectful as all these mentioned figures and spreadsheets seem overbearing never mind extremely time consuming!
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