Re: Dartford Crossing

by Dutto Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:27 pm

Hi there,

I cannot remember a time when any of these items have been classed as "bilge" on this Forum ....

o referenced material, scratch head

o quotes from independent sources, scratch head

o personal opinions. scratch head

Neither I or any other member of this Forum have ever resorted to childish name calling when disagreeing with a fellow member's opinion; which is why this Forum is head and shoulders above so many others.

With regard to the subject of "bilge". in 1962 I had the unenviable job of going into the double-bottoms (bilges) of a ship to sweep out a load of rotting wheat that had managed to migrate from the main holds into the bilges and block up the bilge pumps ....

.... so I am probably one of the very few people on this Forum who actually knows what a bilge looks and smells like!

This is the ship concerned, Ellerman Wilson Line's SS "Domino":

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Best regards,
drinksallround

by Backtrax Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:22 pm

There is an old saying Ian, - "if the cap fits wear it" - but I was just expressing a personal opinion Ian - which you are quite correctly and quick to point out, is allowable.
Having read your experienced description of bilges though, I still think my analogy was a good one.

by oldbikerider Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:33 pm

I'm sorry I even put this on now, anyone got idea's on how I can delete the whole thread.

by Backtrax Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:39 pm

nice one OBR
If you find out how to do it let me know - there are a few others I would like to delete !!!

by mikethebike Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:12 pm

Hi . I expect Admin does the deleting.
However at times we do have some thread drift on the forum. Whistle1

Lets not get wound up over minor points.Life is too short.

Regards

Micky

by DuxDeluxe Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:46 pm

Just migrated my account across, added the motorhome and the wife's car to it. All on one account.

Works for me! up!

by richardstubbs Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:42 pm

Dutto wrote:
richardstubbs wrote:
Dutto wrote:......

............. but I'm struggling to understand why you're quite so upset about this. ...........

We only do this river crossing once a year, on the way to Dover for the ferry, but I'm definitely looking forward to not having to wait in the hour-long queue for the toll booths next year. .............

Richard.
Richard,

I am upset for the simple reasons that:

1. I didn't know the system had been changed and I suspect that I am not alone as the change has not been widely advertised.

2. Like yourself many of the 170,000 vehicles a day will be occasional users and their only warning will be when they arrive at the Crossing.

3. Not everyone has a mobile phone so your "wait at the barrier" will be replaced for many people with "search for a pay-phone".

4. Not everyone has a Credit Card or a Debit Card so your "wait at the barrier" will be replaced with "search for retail outlet with a Payzone".

5. The 0300 number is a "standard rate" call and the cost of the phone call is additional to the actual Toll.

6. I do not have internet access when I am en route to somewhere like Spain (a three day journey for us).

7. Most public internet access points in France and Spain are not secure enough to send my Credit or Debit Card details.

The way in which the fines are escalated is as follows:

o If drivers fail to pay by midnight on the day they use the crossing they will be fined £35.

o In the event they do not pay within 14 days the fine increases to £70.

o If they do not pay within four weeks the fine increases to £105.

The "escalating" nature of the system could not be better designed to catch people who didn't know they had committed an offence and are then away from their homes when the notification arrives.

We have used the Dartford Crossing (tunnel and bridge) well over thirty times in the last ten years and we have never had to queue for more than ten minutes to pay our Toll. We may have been lucky but even a "wait in the hour-long queue" is preferable to "finding a payphone" or "finding a retail outlet with a Payzone" or "a fine of £105".

Incidentally, I am not alone in my concerns. A few days ago the headline in The London Evening Standard (which is a newspaper not often seen in Skegness) was ....
"New Dartford Crossing online payment system 'could see millions of motorists hit with fines' "

Are you aware that the Dartford Crossing is no longer owned and managed by the local councils? In 1988 responsibility for the crossing was transferred from the Kent and Essex County Councils to Dartford River Crossing Limited which is a private company.

The recent changes mean that Dartford River Crossing Limited have ...

.... laid off all the people manning the booths ....

.... increased the Toll by 25% from £2.00 to £2.50 ....

.... and stand to benefit from "millions of fines".

I hope that you aren't still "struggling to understand" why I am upset.

Best regards,

References:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Yes I am still "struggling to understand" why you're so upset - I really don't see how it affects you significantly, and I don't believe, unlike you, that it's some great conspiracy. I think you're raising spurious objections to support your case (there are phones in the services; there will be payzones in the services I expect; actually you get until the end of the next day to pay etc.) and denying the reality of the miserable wait that people who regularly use the crossing (commuters, hauliers etc.) have to endure. And, less importantly in the scheme of things, the hour I, my wife and our screaming baby spent in the queue on a hot day last July.

Actually I am aware that toll crossings in this country are often operated by private companies. In this case (and that of the Severn Bridge) it was in order to enable the building of the second crossing with private finance by giving the toll income (and debts) to said company. I'm not passing judgement on that, it's just how it is.

I think this is genuine progress. I used to hate having to stop for the toll booths on the Peage when we lived in France, with the attendant interruption to the journey and the awkwardness of having to get the (always forgotten about) debit card out of my wallet, and would have loved a system like this. I can see that you might be happy paying at a booth on the odd occasion that you use the crossing, but what about all the people who do it two or more times per day?

I'd much rather there were no tolls, but someone would still have to pay for the bridge.

As a matter of interest, and if you're bored enough to read it, here is a parliamentary debate from four years ago about this very subject:
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It's quite interesting, particularly on the subject of the effects of congestion. It's less interesting for us when it goes into local residents' discount schemes...

Richard

by Dutto Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:01 am

Hi there,

"I really don't see how it affects you significantly, ...."

A new regulation, law or change to the status quo does not have to affect someone directly or significantly to cause concern.

For example, anti-semitism does not "affect" me at all, but I can still protest if I see it happening.

In the case of the Dartford Crossing, there are UK subjects who do not have mobile phones, do not have computers, do not have credit or debit cards and ALL of these people will now have to put themselves out to pay a toll or face an escalating fine.

Alternatively, these people will have to find another route to travel ,rather than use a river crossing that was paid for out of their own taxes.

The system is simply not fair and, as far as I know, it is a system that is not used anywhere else in Europe and possibly the world.

I look forward to someone providing me with evidence of an identical system being used somewhere else.

Best regards,
drinksallround

by daisy mae Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:15 am

We do not all like to use credit/debit cards it is not in ,in my book, there should be a choice some could pay by card if desired, then folk like me who do not trust phone /computer banking, will not use cards etc, so don`t, shouldn`t be forced to do so, in our case will go an alternative route, how many others will do so ?, in effect they would be loosing revenue, if it is substantial enough, result would be higher charges, for those who do not mind the new system.

If it ain`t broke don`t mend it is a good motto, all in all this is putting folk out of work have you thought of that? it is no more than a money making exercise, and they can s.....it , New improved is usually not.

by mikethebike Thu Nov 13, 2014 1:33 pm

Dutto wrote:Hi there,

"I really don't see how it affects you significantly, ...."

A new regulation, law or change to the status quo does not have to affect someone directly or significantly to cause concern.

For example, anti-semitism does not "affect" me at all, but I can still protest if I see it happening.

In the case of the Dartford Crossing, there are UK subjects who do not have mobile phones, do not have computers, do not have credit or debit cards and ALL of these people will now have to put themselves out to pay a toll or face an escalating fine.

Alternatively, these people will have to find another route to travel ,rather than use a river crossing that was paid for out of their own taxes.

The system is simply not fair and, as far as I know, it is a system that is not used anywhere else in Europe and possibly the world.

I look forward to someone providing me with evidence of an identical system being used somewhere else. LEZ

Best regards,

by mikethebike Thu Nov 13, 2014 1:46 pm

daisy mae wrote:We do not all like to use credit/debit cards it is not in ,in my book, there should be a choice some could pay by card if desired, then folk like me who do not trust phone /computer banking, will not use cards etc, so don`t, shouldn`t be forced to do so, in our case will go an alternative route, how many others will do so ?, in effect they would be loosing revenue, if it is substantial enough, result would be higher charges, for those who do not mind the new system.

If it ain`t broke don`t mend it is a good motto, all in all this is putting folk out of work have you thought of that? it is no more than a money making exercise, and they can s.....it , New improved is usually not.

Hi , Sorry this is progress.We cannot stop it. You can pay by a normal land line.You can pay in a convenience store as well.
Slowing everyone down to collect money with all its attendant problems had to be changed soon. It is broke.
It will be years before another bridge is built.
As a result of these changes i will prepay and go over cheaper than before.!! 1.67.
Its a separate question the ethics of payment for something we have already paid for.
I don't know of a way round that crossing that is cheaper or faster.?

Best regards

Micky

by daisy mae Thu Nov 13, 2014 2:17 pm

Progress you may think so, I do not use cards over the telephone, someone tried to take £1000 out of my account I wouldn`t have known until it was too late, if it wasn`t for the card supplier at the time, who had stopped it then notified me. With all the cons and scams about now, I would rather not take the risk, so I will not use this system, there are other ways to get down south. Careful I may be. but will not go down that route where money is concerned, just my view , I will sit back and wait for the views of those that will use it.

Kind regards.
Another thread I will start.

by mikethebike Thu Nov 13, 2014 2:39 pm

Hi Daisy Mae, Well cards are here to stay ,and to be honest i do not know how I could do all I do without them.
I understand your concerns.I think the risk is very very low.
However you can pay in a convenience store with cash.
Best Regards

Micky

by richardstubbs Thu Nov 13, 2014 5:15 pm

Dutto wrote:Hi there,

"I really don't see how it affects you significantly, ...."

A new regulation, law or change to the status quo does not have to affect someone directly or significantly to cause concern.

For example, anti-semitism does not "affect" me at all, but I can still protest if I see it happening.

In the case of the Dartford Crossing, there are UK subjects who do not have mobile phones, do not have computers, do not have credit or debit cards and ALL of these people will now have to put themselves out to pay a toll or face an escalating fine.

Alternatively, these people will have to find another route to travel ,rather than use a river crossing that was paid for out of their own taxes.

The system is simply not fair and, as far as I know, it is a system that is not used anywhere else in Europe and possibly the world.

I look forward to someone providing me with evidence of an identical system being used somewhere else.

Best regards,

I gave you an example (congestion charge). Mike gave you one too (LEZ).

Do you genuinely believe that a change to the way you pay a £2.50 bridge toll is equal to anti-semitism? With respect, I think you need to step back a bit and think about what's important and what isn't. The debate you were so strident in about the EU was important, this isn't.

Anyway, what are you going to do? Stop at the camera and demand to pay by cash? Or drive the long way round (35 miles according to Google, so £7 or so) to make a point that nobody is listening to? It's happening, get used to it. I'm bored with this debate now - I was surprised that you were so opposed and tried to point out the positives in what I thought was an informative way; you responded with a condescending and borderline aggressive reply. I felt I had to reply to that as it was directed at me personally. But no more, I've got other things to do.

You know what I'm going to do next summer? I'm going to drive over the bridge, pay the toll and not get fined. Like almost everyone else, including those people who don't want to use a card, but still manage to pay in cash, sometime either in advance or in arrears, at one of loads of shops.

No offence intended to anyone who's not happy to use a card, particularly online, I respect that.

Here's a couple of (hopefully) helpful links for those people who intend not to be fined:

DART Charge leaflet: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Payzone store locator: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - which doesn't have Dart charge listed yet, because it doesn't start until 30 November.

And the references:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Richard.

by oldfred Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:48 pm

At the risk of antagonising both sides on this debate I've been playing with Google maps.

Our usual journey from Dover to Hatfield (WGC CC site) is 2 hours 7 minutes, 106 miles using the tolls and 2 hours 9 minutes, 129 miles the long way round (both with traffic option on).

In the past we have take the shorter 100 mile route through the Blackwall tunnel but this was for a bit of sightseeing. It takes about 15 minutes more, again depending on traffic.

The differences seem rather small so if the new tolls speed up and encourage traffic the Dartford way then the others might also be quicker.

Regards
Fred

PS - off topic
Roll on the Queensferry crossing, it seemed to be coming along nicely when we were up there last week crossing the Forth bridge for free in both directions. Perhaps free crossings encourage this type of 'benefit' tourism.

by DuxDeluxe Thu Nov 13, 2014 8:58 pm

It may have been posted before, but if you register your motorhome on an account, please make sure that you check to see if it is category B not C. If C then phone them up and they will change to B very quickly as motorhomes are charged as cars

by Backtrax Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:45 am

Well said Richardstubbs.
Back on topic, travelling from the North West, I would tend to use the M40 then anticlockwise round the south side of the M25, on route to Folkestone.
The increase in distance is 14 miles, but the M5 exit cuts out the worst of Birmingham, the M40 is much less conjested than the M1 and the new widened southern section of the M25 is preferable to the Dartford crossing bottleneck.
Timewise a more dependable route which easily makes up the 15mins of extra distance.

by Dutto Sat Nov 15, 2014 4:51 pm

Hi there,

From Skegness to Dover:

o 210 miles using the Dartford Crossing.

o 219 miles using the Blackwall Tunnel.

o 248 miles going west of London on the M25.

PayZone tell me that there is no outlet anywhere near Skegness.

All I have been trying to explain is that:

o One size does not fit all.

o Removing the facility to pay cash at the Toll will affect many, many people; even if I am not one of them.

I am still waiting for someone to let me know where there is an identical Toll in place elsewhere.

Best regards,
drinksallround

by Paulmold Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:05 pm

Portugal

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by Dutto Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:12 pm

oldfred wrote:........... crossing the Forth bridge for free in both directions. Perhaps free crossings encourage this type of 'benefit' tourism.

Fred,

Remember when the Forth Road Bridge more or less doubled the Toll Rate and changed the Toll Booths so that only the Northbound Tolls were manned?

They weren't being generous. Apparently, it was in response to figures that showed many thousands more vehicles each year headed north than headed south. This actually reflects our own use of the bridge as we visit relatives in Edinburgh, move on to friends in Aberdeen and then come back home via friends in Glasgow!

We are also looking forward to the new crossing. Any idea how we will be expected to pay the Toll? Whistle1

Back on Topic ....

As the main complaint against The Dartford Crossing seems to be the delay at the Toll Barriers would it not ease congestion if it too was free? scratch head

Best regards,
drinksallround

Ian

by mikethebike Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:23 pm

Hi Ian you are infuriating at times. Watch my lips .No cash at tolls period.
Progress is here to stay.
There is no going back.
It is free if you go at the right time.
enough said.

Regards

Micky

by Dutto Sat Nov 15, 2014 6:07 pm

Paulmold wrote:Portugal

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Paul,

Many thanks.

It's nice to see ....

"Locals and tourists have demonstrated against the tolls, ...."

.... so at least I would not be alone in Portugal.

The way in which people can pay their dues and could be fined is a lot different:

In Portugal

"If you don’t want to use the automated system,you must make a payment at a post office or a Via Verde shop ....

48 working hours after using the motorway.

In the UK

"If drivers fail to pay by midnight on the day they use the crossing they will be fined £35.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

To pre-pay my Tolls in cash:

o In the UK, I can only pay at a very limited number of outlets, none of which are near where I live.

o In Portugal I can pay at any Post Office. (There are three Post Offices within a mile of where I live so if Portugal is similar ....?)

If I fail to pre-pay my Tolls then:

o In the UK I have to pay "by midnight on the day of use" or face a fine.

o In Portugal I have "48 working hours" after using the facility before I have to pay a fine.

So, even though the fines for non-payment are almost identical in cost the time granted to pay the Toll is totally different and the places where the Toll can be paid is also very different.

The Portuguese system you have indicated seems perfectly fair to me. What a pity the Dartford Crossing people didn't do something similar. allthumbz

Any more examples? think_smiley_46

Best regards,
drinksallround

Ian

by PLOUGHLIN Sat Nov 15, 2014 11:59 pm

Quote Dutto :-

In the UK

"If drivers fail to pay by midnight on the day they use the crossing they will be fined £35.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Best regards,
drinksallround

Ian[/quote]

The payment must be made by midnight on the day after the day you make the crossing, not midnight of the same day.
See FAQ here. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

by Dutto Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:35 am

PLOUGHLIN wrote:Quote Dutto :-

In the UK
"If drivers fail to pay by midnight on the day they use the crossing they will be fined £35.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Best regards,

Ian

The payment must be made by midnight on the day after the day you make the crossing, not midnight of the same day.
See FAQ here. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Ah, the vagaries of the British Press eh?

I am assuming that the government got it right but "by midnight on the day after" I have used the Dartford Crossing going south I was usually somewhere in central France, Holland or Germany.

Ah well, luckily the new system won't affect me at all. allthumbz

Best regards,
drinksallround

PS

Talk about strange bedfellows. Look who is even more against the Dartford Crossing Tolls than I am! up!

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Weird eh? Whistle1

by mikethebike Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:17 pm

Hi i did a quick straw poll yesterday.
I asked 100 people if they preferred free tolls.
Surprised that only 98 said yes.

Regards

Micky