Quality of towbar install

These photos were taken early in 2019 before I fitted the trailer lights which was a simple connection to the Autosleepers R4 position.  Later today I'll take a photo of the R4 connection.

This post from 2019 will also help:

The intrepid researchers Caraman and Marconi have dug out some more information.

Using Caraman's data from the table below I have updated my annotated picture of pin outs on the VLM5, the earth return pin has been discovered, all necessary connections for a bike rack are in the 9 pin connector, no need for a separate earth. This makes things easier for cable entry,  just one small round cable to pass through the floor.

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From Caraman :-

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The pin number and colour refer to the 13 pin and 12 N plug/socket and wire.
 

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Reversing light* – pin 8 pink	RH side lights – pin 5 brown	RH indicator – pin 4 green
Earth – pin 3 white	Stop light** – pin 6 red	Stop light** – pin 6 red
Fog light – pin 2 blue	LH side light – pin 7 black	LH indicator – pin 1 yellow

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*optional and only of use if the trailer or lighting board has a reversing light.  It is only available now on the 13 pin.  It was available on the largely obsolete 12 S which was used for caravans where it was pin 1 yellow.
 
**either of the two stop lights pins on the 9-way Mate-N-Lok may be connected to the single 6 red pin/wire found on the 13 pin or 12 N plug/socket and cable.
 
It will support either filament or LED bulbs on the trailer/lighting board but the low current consumption of the LED,s can sometimes require some resistors to be added. [/size]

marconiMember




Posts : 931
Joined : 2019-03-17
Location : Northamptonshire
Auto-Sleeper : Nuevo EK
Vehicle Year : 2019

 

mikeelawson wrote:

Any chance of photo of connection in cupboard under cooker please?

 Picture of unit and instruction manual download on the Sargent web site.  https://sargentltd.co.uk/shop/product/vlm5-for-various-motorhomes/289

It seems that the VLM5 began to be installed in 2019, was it installed in all vans after that?

PLOUGHLIN wrote:
 Picture of unit and instruction manual download on the Sargent web site.  https://sargentltd.co.uk/shop/product/vlm5-for-various-motorhomes/289

Thanks for this.  This the first time I have seen the VLM5 user guide!  I see it was produced in March 2019.  It should have been included with the documentation for all vans that have it including my own.  The 13 pin Sargent harness is for towing caravans and is ridiculously expensive.  If towing a cargo trailer or powering a lighting board, only pins/wires 1 to 7 need to be used which makes it simpler and cheaper.

mikeelawson wrote:

Any chance of photo of connection in cupboard under cooker please?

Just taken these photos of my installation.  I have surplus 7 core cable coiled by the VLM5 and under the van.  This is because I wasn't sure where I was going to put the external lighting board socket.  For a tow bar its fixed so the cable should be much shorter.  I used a 13 pin connector which is superior to the 7N.  The 7 core cable went through the same hole in the floor as the other cables but I had to remove some sealant which I then replaced.

Peter Brown wrote:It seems that the VLM5 began to be installed in 2019, was it installed in all vans after that?

I don't know but I suspect its only on coachbuilts.  Someone with a post 2019 PVC should know.

Interesting, I’ll check our tow bar electrical installation (undertaken by previous owner) and report back. I haven’t seen a VLM5 unit but then I haven’t been looking for it.

Tim

When the indicators are on the VLM5 clicks quite loudly.  So a way of checking if you have one is to listen for this coming from the back of the van.  If the only clicking is from behind the dash you probably don't have one in which case fitting towing or lighting board electrics will be the same as for a car.

Caraman wrote:When the indicators are on the VLM5 clicks quite loudly.  So a way of checking if you have one is to listen for this coming from the back of the van.  If the only clicking is from behind the dash you probably don't have one in which case fitting towing or lighting board electrics will be the same as for a car.

I am going to speak to Sargent about this tomorrow

Caraman wrote:Oh dear.  Marquis were clueless about the VLM5 when I bought my Nuevo in 2019.  It seems nothing has changed.  I can assure you that all that is required is a meter of 7-core cable, a 7N or 13 pin socket and a 9 way ‘Mate N Lok’ plug.  If in doubt talk to Sargent.  On my Nuevo there was already a hole in the floor for the cable.  A competent electrician could have fitted this in minutes.  I would definitely be taking this up with your fitter.  Part of the problem is that there is no mention of the VLM5 in any of the documentation that comes with the motorhome even though the VLM5 is needed when carrying bikes or a box on the back, with or without a tow bar.

Would I have a VLM5 on my 2019 Bourton?
Having read the comments on the tow bar wiring I must say that whatever its faults, the Autosleeper wiring on my Nuevo was many many times worse. The chassis cabling was connected to the rear light cabling via choc blocks with no attempt to protect them from the rear wheel spray. The choc blocks had steel screws so of course were going rusty. I rewired it using soldered connections protected by waterproof adhesive heat shrink sleeving. There was no evidence that the camper had previously had a tow bar removed, or a bike rack that might have had a lighting bar.
And as everyone has said, leaving the zip tie ends dangling is just plain lazy - but I wouldn't complain, just get under there and snip them off if it bothered me. Which it would.

Anyone interested in whether water would enter an electrical connection (of any voltage) might be interested to learn all the different IP ratings for various enclosures, and plug-and-socket connectors:
https://rainfordsolutions.com/products/ingress-protection-ip-rated-enclosures/ip-enclosure-ratings-standards-explained/

gassygassy wrote:
Would I have a VLM5 on my 2019 Bourton?
...

Yes - on the floor under the cooker in the pan locker.

Yeaaay @caraman, yes I do have that under the cooker. Mine is a 2019 Bourton but I'm not sure what month. At least that is reassuring that I haven't got one that had been sat in a field for months. It would have been just before Covid was discovered. 
I was underneath yesterday and there is lots of wiring loom wrapped around itself with plugs and sockets and tie wraps.
Then I thought I would have no use for a towbar electric socket anyway since the mere act of adding a towbar would send me over the 3500kg limit, even if I can get down below that to start with. I do have a bike rack that I have removed and if I can get the MGW low enough I could refit it and wire into that socket. How refreshing to have something that makes it easy to add rear lighting.
I am slightly puzzled by the fact that from the factory the Bourton has a mgw of 3650 and with just wifey (75kg) and me (80kg) on board it weighed that before I stripped lots of stuff off. So how can it carry 4 people and a tow bar without exceeding the 3650 limit, let alone 3500?
That's a separate subject.

 Caraman wrote:
........I used a 13 pin connector which is superior to the 7N. 

Just in case anyone doesn't know why it is superior, the 13 pin plug and socket twist, turn and lock together so they can't come undone while travelling.

gassygassy wrote:Yeaaay @caraman, yes I do have that under the cooker. Mine is a 2019 Bourton but I'm not sure what month. At least that is reassuring that I haven't got one that had been sat in a field for months. It would have been just before Covid was discovered. 
I was underneath yesterday and there is lots of wiring loom wrapped around itself with plugs and sockets and tie wraps.
Then I thought I would have no use for a towbar electric socket anyway since the mere act of adding a towbar would send me over the 3500kg limit, even if I can get down below that to start with. I do have a bike rack that I have removed and if I can get the MGW low enough I could refit it and wire into that socket. How refreshing to have something that makes it easy to add rear lighting.
I am slightly puzzled by the fact that from the factory the Bourton has a mgw of 3650 and with just wifey (75kg) and me (80kg) on board it weighed that before I stripped lots of stuff off. So how can it carry 4 people and a tow bar without exceeding the 3650 limit, let alone 3500?
That's a separate subject.

Put your VIN into this decoder to get the factory build data sheet, will tell you the factory weight amongs many other interesting OEM equiptment.

I see from the AS manual for Bourton, the MTPLM is stated as 3500kg, where does your 3650kg come from?

https://www.lastvin.com/

PLOUGHLIN wrote:where does your 3650kg come from?

My Fiat plate is 3650 but the AS plate and V5 are 3500.

MB wouldn't have a 3650kg on the MB plate though.

Seems odd that Gassy is so tight on payload . MIRO is quoted as 2983kg with payload 517kg.

As he mentions, van has extras like habitation air con and levellers, also not working on theoretical payload but measured on weighbridge

PLOUGHLIN wrote:

Put your VIN into this decoder to get the factory build data sheet, will tell you the factory weight amongs many other interesting OEM equiptment.

I see from the AS manual for Bourton, the MTPLM is stated as 3500kg, where does your 3650kg come from?

https://www.lastvin.com/

I've got a lot of different weights from several different sources. The original A/S label says 3650kg. I can't add a photo of this.



One SV Tech Says 3650kg. I also can't add a photo of this.


Another SV tech says 3500 I also can't add a photo of this.

Its a bit puzzling why there should be a 3650 SV Tech sticker when there already was a 3650 A/S sticker. The 3650 SV Tech sticker predates the 3500 SV Tech sticker so it won't count and in any case I am completely lost as to how anyone can drive such a heavy vehicle as 3650kg. No wonder the Government in their infinite wisdom does not allow me to.
The V5 says Revenue weight 3500 kg gross.
It also says Max Permissible mass 3650 kg. This is a new revelation to me, I wonder what the differerence between revenue weight and MPM is. I guess if the MPM was the same as the rev weight then the road tax would be PHGV.

So if I am stopped I will just have plead that I am a iggerant thicky and I know nothing, Manwell style. I'll try saying that's the vehicle, not including me and wifey - but that won't wash I am sure.
The truth is I know I am not allowed to drive over 3500 so in theory I would like to keep it that way but it would be difficult without chucking out wifey.

gassygassy - have you weighed your loaded motorhome yet?  If not, how do you know it is over 3500 kg?

PLOUGHLIN wrote:

Put your VIN into this decoder to get the factory build data sheet, will tell you the factory weight amongs many other interesting OEM equiptment.

I see from the AS manual for Bourton, the MTPLM is stated as 3500kg, where does your 3650kg come from?

https://www.lastvin.com/

I put the VIN in the decoder. Twice, in case I mistyped the first time, and got this:

Error VIN not found,


Check the VIN you entered.
If your car was built before 1983 the datacard can be obtained by contacting Mercedes-Benz Classic Center at classic@daimler.com
Your car is too new and it hasn't been added to the database.

Mercedes Benz VIN decoded at https://www.lastvin.com/vin/MjxRadXDRJRdeoXrm

Caraman wrote:gassygassy - have you weighed your loaded motorhome yet?  If not, how do you know it is over 3500 kg?

Yes indeedey. I was going to post another thread about it, but since you ask:
I took it to the weighbridge and a very nice young chap was very keen, he likes motorhomes and understood exactly why I wanted it weighed. It came out at 36something or other, I forget. that's with me the driver and presumably 80kg wifey. So that lot's 160kg. He said he doubted that I wanted a printed certificate at that rate, he knew it should ideally be 3500. He said if I was stopped in Europe with a sub-3500 weighbridge certificate they wouldn't weigh it, they would just wave me on. However if I didn't have a certificate they would weigh it and then when it weighed 3600 they would throw me in the cooler. He said I won't charge you if you don't want a certificate, can you get it below 3500 and bring it back tomorrow? I said yes, it has a full tank of water, spare wheel and 3/4 tank of fuel. I'll go home and strip it.
I removed the spare wheel and carrier, the rear corner steadies, heavy bottle jack, rear bike carrier (which I found to my astonishment how easy it is to remove in two minutes, complete with valuable bikes). I emptied the water tank and drove 60 miles which brought the tank down to half. I returned to get it weighed and it was 3460 kg with both of us in it, and 3380kg with just wifey in it so he printed a certificate and I paid him the princely sum of £12.
My dilemma now is do I refit the spare wheel? I don't think I need the heavy duty bottle jack and certainly not the corner steadies.
I think I'll remove the satellite dish, whatever it weighs I won't be using it and I could fit a larger solar panel in its place.

Should I re-post this as a separate subject - someone might be interested.

Mmmm.  Getting a certificate to say your weight is less than 3500 kg by taking things off and then adding them back on afterwards is not what you are supposed to do.  The certificate should reflect the maximum weight your van is likely to be for a trip.  As PLOUGHLIN points out your van has a reasonable payload of 517 kg so I wonder what's using it up?  Did you check your axle masses?

I can understand the removal of corner steadies which are hardly essential, same with the satellite dish .

Also the bottle jack, since I for one wouldn't even attempt to change a wheel on our motorhome, or our car for that matter having nearly suffered a fatality last time I tried. Best left to a man in hi-vis and a big fluorescent vehicle with flashing beacons and a proper trolley jack - that's what we pay breakdown cover premiums for.

But have you really thought through the consequences of removing the spare wheel? What's your plan B to deal with a puncture?

I won't get involved in the weights discussion as I just don't understand why we need so many different contradictory terms, which simply confuses things. Surely this needs a rethink to achieve a more consistent terminology so we can all be sure to understand and comply?

I got a reply from the Mercedes get-your-data link which said


Dear Mr. Harcourt, Thank you for your inquiry. The individual vehicle data/type plates, the relevant vehicle identification numbers and the date and place of delivery are usually documented on the vehicle data card, depending on the type and year of manufacture of the vehicle.  Insofar as they are documented in our archives, these data can be made available exclusively to the legitimate owner of the respective vehicle upon presentation of proof of ownership (registration documents, purchase contract, etc.).  In the case of vehicles from 1945 onwards, the paintwork and special equipment at the time of delivery are documented.In general, the first owner is not documented. No information is also archived about the vehicle history after delivery.  We apologize, but we (Mercedes-Benz Classic Contact Center) are not able to issue a data card for your vehicle. Please therefore contact your local Mercedes-Benz dealership to apply for a data card.The department for service and parts is able to order the data card for your vehicle in the archives of the Mercedes-Benz Group AG. 

classic@mercedes-benz.com	16:34 (32 minutes ago)
to me

Since I answered all their questions I was surprised that they want a copy of the v5 when they didn't ask for it. Anyway I might take the V5 to the Merc dealer and ask them. I do want a few odd bits for it, and a spare key so I would have to take the V5 anyway.