Re: AutoSleepers Quality Control Pt 3

by inspiredron Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:33 am

Mark always went the extra mile. He knew every model intimately and could fix anything. He was scrupulously fair in what was and wasn't chargeable and I always did the 300 mile round trip for hab services for peace of mind. I haven't been back since he left and will now seek a local mobile man. I agree with CC that he was not properly appreciated by A/S though he seldom let anything slip that indicated that. I only recall one incident, not long before he left when we were discussing the dreaded tape over wallboard joints. He told me that the factory were moving to some kind of all in one wall coating with no seams and that he had strongly expressed his view that it would cause worse problems than it solved. He was waiting for a new type of complaint!
I really hope that the move was good for him and his family - at least he is working a lot nearer home.

by RML Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:13 am

gassygassy wrote:There are several problems with trying to get your outlay refunded. If you get a problem when it is new the law obliges you to give the retailer an opportunity to fix the problem. I think the only successful course of action is just to give them one opportunity. The second problem you have is that when you have given them (the retailer) two opportunities to rectify the problem, you are deemed in law to have accepted the item. The retailer is responsible for the rubbish workmanship of the manufacturer, so there is no point trying the manufacturer. The third problem is that the retailer will not give you your money back unless a court orders them to. The fourth cost of trying to get a refund is that a letter from your solicitor to the retailer costs £600. You will have to pay this: it is only people on benefits or in prison and super rich people who can afford legal representation.
In a similar situation to yours, but within 3 months of buying a repeatedly defective motorhome, my small town solicitor charged me the said £600 to write a 'I want my money back - this item is defective and is unfit for purpose' letter. That failed, so I went back to the solicitor who said "OK we can take them to court. I require a deposit of £20,000 which will buy you your first day in court. You must bear in mind that 'the law is a cross between a horse and a donkey' and if your motorhome only has three wheels the judge will find in favour of the dealer and you will keep the three wheeler, pay my costs and pay the retailer's costs which will be considerably more than mine".
I decided that the cheapest way out would be to trade the vehicle in which is what I did. I lost £4,000. It wasn't an A/S, it was a Rapido. Never again, they make A/S quality control look splendid.
Between you and me and the gate post I now have a German motorhome, a 2009 model and it is so far superior to my AutoSleeper I frequently stand back and admire the wiring, the cabinetry, the design, and the general build quality.
And you are right about switches. Black plastic switches which go click and join two pieces of metal together are far far superior to the awful touch screen things. As are light switches on the wall at elbow height. Would you buy a house with light switches on the ceiling? Neither would I. I also do not need (or know how) to use a phone to turn on the motorhome heating as I leave a pub three miles down the road. I do not need a waste water heater. I do not need an electronic dispaly to tell me if it is sunny or raining outside. I do not need to get out of bed to turn off the lights at night, I can do it when I am in bed. And lots of similar showroom sales gimmicks. The Nuevo has a tiny weeny switch on the ceiling in the washroom - this is a fairly common thing in motorhomes. the last time a salesman told me that 'this has four berths so it is an ideal family motorhome' I went to the washroom where the light switch was on the ceiling and asked the salesman "how can my four year old use the toilet at night when he can't turn on the light?" The salesman had no answer, other than some mumbling about rigging up a battery night light in the toilet. I said " so it's not a family motorhome then. Show me one which is". He couldn't so I left.

I agree the water tank heating device is on a par with the chocolate teapot as inventions go.
Rich..

by Sunbeampizza Sat Jul 24, 2021 9:41 am

I have been loyal to AS for 14 years having owned a few of which my Broadway developed continual faults (leaking toilet, leaking boiler, new hab door amongst others) and I bought a new Symbol Plus one year ago. On our first trip the EC700 panel packed up - another trip to Marquis, we discovered no gas availability ( after phoning Willersey I had to scrabble about underneath to reset the crash shut off valve which was left off ) hinges loose, a terrible rattle from the sliding door window - all screws found loose after removing lining, and several minor adjustments needed. ALL SHOULD HAVE BEEN PICKED UP UNDER AN ADEQUATE PDI. The pdi when we picked it up was short and inadequate.
So enough is enough. We sold it a month ago on Auto Trader, and incidentally almost got what we paid for it after six serious enquiries and have moved to Swift. Whether they are any better who knows and I doubt it ! But AS have deteriorated and I am not sorry to go. I only wish I could buy a new van with old fashioned switches and no fancy digital stuff. I really mean that.
I love this forum and will miss it. Thanks to everyone who manages it and the moderators. The Swift one is not a patch on it.

by Tinwheeler Sat Jul 24, 2021 9:46 am

I was told there's no need to leave this forum when I made a similar move.

by mikethebike Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:00 am

Tinwheeler wrote:I was told there's no need to leave this forum when I made a similar move.

This is true.Still waiting for the right AS to come my way.It will not be a new one!

Micky

by groundhog Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:01 am

Why leave, stick around you will be welcome I am sure!
Hope the new Swift works out faultless, unfortunately all these vehicles like many other things in life are getting more technical for no good reason and consequently less reliable, reading other forums it seems to apply across the board, German. French, British built it seems to make little difference these days.
It is how the manufacturer or supplier deals with the problem is the main issue and it is there AS seem to be getting it wrong.

by Victor Johnstone Sun Jul 25, 2021 3:21 pm

RCBirmingham wrote:So here we are again, another rant about quality.

My van is currently back in for repairs after the main control panel decided to stop working whilst on holiday and the main charger packed up leaving me with a dead vehicle battery whilst in the middle of nowhere on Mull. Now this is the 3rd holiday in 12 months I have had to cut short due to the vehicle electrics failing... so back of the dealer it went. Interestingly the 2nd time this happened AS said they replaced the control panel with the newest version and all of the Sargent Controller was also replaced, and yet here we are, same problem, different month.

So van is with dealer and the first thing they tell me is that the control panel is an old version, now bearing in mind this has been replaced once by the dealer and the last time by the factory who installed the latest version... or so they said.

I have asked the dealer to also sort out about 8+ other quality / fitment problems, and have sent them the list of the 30+ other items the factory are supposed to have repaired and have asked they all be 'checked'. Whilst they have the van I have asked that a paint repair be done to part of the back panel, but have asked that this does not go back to AS as they 'repaired' it previously and it's started to bubble once again in the same place.

To date this quality British product has led to 3 separate holidays being cut short and the van will have been in for it's various repairs for some 3 months out of the last 12... and the response from all involved, a shrug of the shoulders and a sorry... that's it.

I have now put the dealer on notice that the if vehicle continues to not be 'fit for purpose', given all parties have tried to fix the various problems several times, and that if it's not working as it should with all quality issues rectified, I'll be rejecting the van and perusing a full refund / compensation.

As much as I love my Broadway, I'm not prepared to accept that having spent north of 60k that this quality and reliability is something I can live with. If I had wanted Swift quality I would have brought a Swift!!

And finally, does anybody from AS actually read this forum? If so, they must hold their heads in shame, or they simply don't care, their strapline being 'A company like no other'... I could come up with others more apt!

you make good points. For us, new AS Warwick Duo, all sorts of niggles including a badly assembled melted gas tank sender cable to the rubbish in cab meter. water blanket help on with what looks like prit stick and falls off after 1 journey even after warranty replacement, similarly melted brake cable (routed too close to the exhaust pipe, similarly melted water drain hose, a haywire control panel sending Sargent messages that the vehicle battery is low (control panel shows it falling to 0.1V) yet van started easily. Nice to receive that after going for a walk and sitting down to (not enjoy for worry) a pub meal. Now said control panel switches on and off at random but wont turn completely off. AdBlue warning, topped up, still warning. This is 1970s rubbish quality control. It killed the British motorcycle industry and nearly did the same for British cars. Very unimpressed. We love the Van but it is doing our nut in!

by Victor Johnstone Sun Jul 25, 2021 3:22 pm

you make good points. For us, new AS Warwick Duo, all sorts of niggles including a badly assembled melted gas tank sender cable to the rubbish in cab meter. water blanket help on with what looks like prit stick and falls off after 1 journey even after warranty replacement, similarly melted brake cable (routed too close to the exhaust pipe, similarly melted water drain hose, a haywire control panel sending Sargent messages that the vehicle battery is low (control panel shows it falling to 0.1V) yet van started easily. Nice to receive that after going for a walk and sitting down to (not enjoy for worry) a pub meal. Now said control panel switches on and off at random but wont turn completely off. AdBlue warning, topped up, still warning. This is 1970s rubbish quality control. It killed the British motorcycle industry and nearly did the same for British cars. Very unimpressed. We love the Van but it is doing our nut in!

by Peter Brown Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:00 pm

Every complex multi-system new build; whether it be a house, office, factory, ship, aeroplane, car, caravan, motorhome, telecoms (or any other utility) network is found to have 'snags' on completion. That is a matter of fact.

The important matter is how those snags are addressed. In a high quantity car production facility they quickly find what snags are likely, look for them and correct them before despatch - but not always. I bought a three month old car that had been delivered and registered a month before the models formal release - in the first six months it had FORTY recalls.

I've been reading on the forum lately of members having issues with gas installations at home and I've certainty experienced domestic work where plumbing joints have not been made properly.

When you get your new (to you) van look to your dealer for advice on how you should expect systems to perform and call him to account for a remedy when any of those expectations are not met. Keep communications professional and amiable and there is a 95% chance all will be sorted to your satisfaction and if its not you have quality objective evidence to take to court.

With the exception of one gas distribution related installation that was found to be positively dangerous, I've not read on the forum of any generic scenario of problem with a new van that I've not experienced with the vans that I have had and had resolved properly.

by groundhog Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:20 pm

Exactly Peter it is not so much about the faults as how they are dealt with.

I have taken delivery of many new Boeing and Airbus aeroplanes and if you saw the snag list on those you would never fly again. BUT they are all cleared efficiently and in a timely manner before the aeroplane enters commercial service and that is the big difference.

by Victor Johnstone Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:50 pm

Sorry but whataboutery doesnt help. It's not a fact that everything has snags. My new Nissan didn't, my new Guzzi bike didn't. Its poor quality control. Not defensible but should be actionable by AS. We have a melted wire literally next to the gas tank. Thank god its connection was ok. Ps just got a Sargent warning low vehicle battery voltage. I know it isn't. Poor show.

by groundhog Sun Jul 25, 2021 6:00 pm

We are all singing from the same hymn sheet in a way, our motorhome when new never even made the 100 mile journey home, the water jacket started leaking on the Mercedes engine but that was not A/S fault it was a Mercedes fault. Mercedes fixed it immediately and we were on our way again. The mug I am drinking my tea from is faultless never had a problem with it and most things that come off a production line in millions shouldn't have faults.
A motorhome is a bespoke build, built by humans not robots and sometimes things will go wrong, they shouldn't but they will. The biggest problem as we all agree is these faults are not being picked up before the vehicle is put in to service, they should never be delivered to end users with such often simple faults that have not been attended too. A melted wire is a classic example, how could someone not have seen that if the vehicle was inspected properly?

by Victor Johnstone Sun Jul 25, 2021 6:09 pm

groundhog - exactly!

by gassygassy Sun Jul 25, 2021 7:19 pm

groundhog wrote:.......

I have taken delivery of many new Boeing and Airbus aeroplanes .....

Haven't we all? hugegrins

You must have a big garage, that's all I can say.

by groundhog Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:18 am

Its not the size of the garage that is the problem its the bleddy great broom you need to sweep the drive hugegrins

Back on thread now... allthumbz

by gassygassy Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:37 pm

..OK so our 'new motorhome' inadequacies are not as great as discovering a cable that is chafing and burning in a new 747 at 30,000ft. (now you can tell me that 747s are obsolete so_sad

)

Groundhog - I thnk the quite awesome and profound message you are giving is that when we are taking delivery of a new motorhome we need to be as thorough as you when you were taking delivery of a Big Aeroplane. I guess your check list must have extended to 380 pages.
So what we need to do is to get past the 'ooh doesn't it smell nice inside, aren't the tyres black, and the alloy wheels shiny and look at the speedo with 30 miles on the clock' (which have all been done at 85mph). Instead we need to go with at least ten pages of checklist, get the keys off the dealer and tell him to B off for the rest of the day while we check it out. And not accept his word that "yes, we can fix that peeling off label
at the first service". We must be prepared to go back home and wait till they have fixed all the snags. And hold out till they are all fixed before we hand over the balance, assuming we left a deposit if we are not trading our old one in. Even if the dealer is at the other end of the country.

by groundhog Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:06 pm

That is the point, I was the dealer (broker) for those aeroplanes and used a team of engineers responsible to make sure they were 100% when the customer was handed the keys. That is precisely where the system with supplying motorhomes is falling down. It is the dealers job to reject the vehicle not the customers and the dealers job to ensure the manufacturer puts things right

It is not hard! hugegrins

by mikethebike Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:38 pm

Dealer not paid enough to do all that.IMHO

Micky

by RML Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:56 am

I disagree, a quality manufacturer will engineer out repeated problems, only those with no conscience will keep making something that fails in the same place and takes their customers for granted.
Rich..

by mikethebike Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:22 am

Be helpful if a motorhome dealer came on and said what he has to do.

Micky

by gassygassy Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:48 am

RML wrote:I disagree, a quality manufacturer will engineer out repeated problems, only those with no conscience will keep making something that fails in the same place and takes their customers for granted.
Rich..

I agree that a quality manufacturer will engineer out repeated problems, if they have a desire for a long term of the business. If they just want to maximise profits now in order to sell the business then they aren't interested in the long term.
I'm not sure if this is drifting off thread but:
When the Mk1 Cortina was launched they found lots of hold-ups in the production line. The bosses wanted to stop the line for 2 weeks to rectify the build problems so they organised a strike so that they wouldn't have to pay the workers while the line was shut down. It was cheaper, they reckoned, to give in to striker's demands after two weeks than it was to pay them full wages for two weeks.
When Ford bought Jaguar (I heard this from a Jag worker who was on the line at the time) Ford sent a team of quality control engineers to the factory and asked each worker individually to show them what he did, and specifically to ask what problems they had encountered as the cars came down the line. The chap I spoke to said he told the inspector that often the rear axle mounts don't exactly line up with the holes in the chassis. Sometimes he even had to drill expanded holes in the chassis in order to fit the axle. Ford shut down the plant for two weeks to rectify all the problems found in the survey. When they went back, this chap said every single axle fitted perfectly and he was able to shift a lot more cars in the day than he had before. I'm not a fan of Ford cars, but I thought that was interesting.

It would be nice if all british motor caravan manufacturers would try that approach. Not just A/S. Do we have a manufacturer with a good reputation for quality control? Is it the case that A/S are generally very good (but not perfect) and as with any other product the forums only get lots of complaining posts and very few saying how happy the customers are?
We would only know if we had access to the warranty claims data that the manufacturers must have, locked away in a secret safe somewhere!

by Paulmold Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:12 am

Back in 2016 MMM mag interviewed Geoff Scott CEO and I quote....

Quotes from Geoff Scott -
"We build a quality motorhome that doesn't leak and therefore we're very confident to put wood in the construction"
"Our quality levels have also improved - our warranty claims have never been lower"
"We constantly review the performance of our partners/suppliers and, if we feel there is an issue, we try and help them to improve and if that doesn't work, then we may change supplier"
"We believe the customer is king".

by mikethebike Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:26 am

Words are cheap. That's a saying i always remember.
Actions speak louder than words. That's another one.

Micky

by gassygassy Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:46 am

Paulmold wrote:Back in 2016 MMM mag interviewed Geoff Scott CEO and I quote....

Quotes from Geoff Scott -
"We build a quality motorhome that doesn't leak and therefore we're very confident to put wood in the construction"
"Our quality levels have also improved - our warranty claims have never been lower"
"We constantly review the performance of our partners/suppliers and, if we feel there is an issue, we try and help them to improve and if that doesn't work, then we may change supplier"
"We believe the customer is king".

Well that, having given me a good laugh for the day, means I can now go outside and work on my steel-framed 1981 Eriba Puck. I'm replacing the wood in the gas locker at the front of it.
( I won't mention the steel chassis, some of which rusted and I have replaced tap_fingers

)
Is there a forum section for 1981 AutoSleepers? Excuse me for asking - without searching first! Whistle1

by groundhog Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:26 pm

mikethebike wrote:Words are cheap. That's a saying i always remember.
Actions speak louder than words. That's another one.

Micky

another one
Money talks bullsh*t walks!