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How to rotate your Truma boiler through 180

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MCRJ
Tinwheeler
Askit
Peter Brown
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Libraryman2
Kutch
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Delboy
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Post by inspiredron Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:31 pm

MCRJ wrote:Thank you. After removing one of the plastic caps, I can now see how to remove the screws. I originally thought they used the type of 'cam' type fittings used by IKEA furniture.
Would be much better if they did. You may need to replace one or two screws with a slightly larger diameter. Those screws tend to slacken with the road vibrations causing the furniture to creak - not just on that panel!

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Post by gassygassy Fri Apr 01, 2022 12:04 pm

Kutch says:
I wouldn't certify anyone else's work. Be them competent or not

I hear this a lot and there is only one explanation I can think of to justify it, and that is that GSR engineers don't like to lose the profit they would get if they supplied as well as installed a gas appliance.

I doubt that Kutch is actually telling the truth (without realising it), unless the only certification work he ever does is on gas appliances that he has supplied and installed. The implication therefore is that he has never gone to a gas boiler, or fire, or hob that he did not install. If you take your motorhome to the dealer you bought it from and have a habitation service done the engineer that does it will be certifying a gas installation that he / she did not install. Similarly the vast majority of British Gas engineers that go around servicing people's gas appliances are certifying thousands of systems that they did not install. The bottom line is that if you are competent to certify an installation it does not matter if you installed it or not. If you don't want to do it, the implication is that you are not certain that you are competent to look at what someone else has installed. There is no law or regulation against certifying someone else's installation, you simply apply the same rules and tests as if you had installed it yourself.
Personally I would be prepared to go and look at what someone else had installed, if I had an agreement firstly that the gas supply was not yet connected and that the fee would be £200 payable up front. Also that as soon as I saw a non compliant part I would cap off the supply and give the customer a quote to fix the fault (s). If the customer had connected the gas and it was dangerous there is a laid-down procedure which is to cap off the supply with the owner's permission. If they refuse to give permission you call Centrica who will be there in 15 minutes and cut off the gas permanently till the fault is fixed. They will shut off the service valve in the meter box and padlock it in position, and possibly remove the meter as well. This of course applies to residential and commercial premises rather than to motorhomes. I have seen British Gas's store of tampered meters where people even cut them open, bypass the metering system and reconnect the inlet to the outlet pipes and weld up the casing where they cut it!
The procedures for testing, certifying and for what to do if the installation is not correct, are all well documented and laid down, and are part of any GSR engineer's training and examining.
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Post by Dare-devil-dennis Tue May 03, 2022 11:49 am

VERY interesting. As another serial modifier, I have been contemplating this issue for a while. On my Stanton (which was out of Warranty) I had long been concerned about the heat confined in this area where boiler electronics etc are housed. I was going to fit a ventilator, like the fridge vents, on the outside wall by cutting out a pocket in the wall opposite the boiler. (I have no fear, but my dear wife will be out when I do this! - see my thread on moving the Sargent EC500 unit which I did while she was visiting Hong Kong). This has three  advantages,
1. The vent cover can be removed easily without tools for access to the "important" bits of the boiler you sometimes have to get to.
2. This approach will provide more cooling for the boiler electronics and fuse.
3. If I do the job while Jean is out, it will be less traumatic. smile!

Of course, the fridge vent cover has a winter blanking plate to all but completely seal the new opening in colder weather in case it creates draughts from the vent under the wardrobe. This is no less weatherproof than the fridge ventilation, but might need the cover fitted for washing the motorhome - (whatever is your normal practice).

I have still to do this because I changed the Stanton to a Bourton last year and I have had all the mods I made to the Staton to catch up on. Also, I wanted to get to the factory and see where the timber struts are in that part of the wall so I can avoid them. Alternatively, does anyone know how to find small wooden "studs", as the builders call them, in a wall faced with aluminium?

As for doing a proper job to make it proof from water ingress, using the approved sealant and getting the hole size right will be important! I would add sealant around the new pocket edges, which will be Styrofoam and sealant tape around the inside of the new access panel after the vent cover is fitted and sealed, but then I am a belt and braces man.

The Boiler is fitted on a shelf above the wheel arch and the wall in this area will already be well supported. I'd be happy to hear your views on this. No electrical work, no gas work. it just feels like an easier option and by using the same vent covers as the fridge should look ok too (like it should be there!).

Dennis
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Post by Guest Tue May 03, 2022 1:42 pm

I found when I needed to reset the boiler, I used a mirror to see the reset button, I did buy a 8 inch marine type hatch that I was going add to the floor of the wardrobe directly over the reset button so I could reach down and reset if needed. Needless to say, still to do this
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Post by gassygassy Tue May 03, 2022 2:01 pm

Ah, a man after my own heart Dennis! A fellow CSM (Compulsive Serial Modifier wave ). That sounds like a good idea, putting a vent on the outside wall. As for finding the timber frame in the wall you might be able to see it if you close one eye, squint with the other one and stand on one leg looking along the length of the body. There might be a bit of light deflection where the framework is. Alternatively get a stud locator from B&Q and wave it around the inside wall. Or just tap your knuckle along the inside wall and listen for a change in sound. You would need to have the vent right next to the boiler access panel of course. Don't worry about the Boss, she won't notice any change. I heard of a Suzuki motorbike chap who bought a new bike every year when the new models came out. As they were always the same blue and white his wife never noticed. I don't know how he hid the finances from her though.
One of my better modifications was to a Rapido kitchen sink drain. From the factory it was done in 25mm pipe and had seven 90 degree bends (to trap food in) on the way to the waste tank. When the plug was pulled, the water took ages to drain, and this was when new, not bunged up with bits of cauliflower. I removed the furniture - the kitchen was half way down the length of the van and the tank was right at the rear. I thought that's daft, instead of all these bends why didn't they use a straighter length? In plumbing, a 90 degree bend offers the same flow resistance as one metre of straight pipe. I ripped out whatever was in the way, just unscrewing things that could be screwed back, not sawing or cutting anything. I laid 32mm pipe, with a total of four 90 degree bends. The water now drained like the Niagra Falls with a very satisfying sluuuuurrrrp at the end. What puzzles me is why Rapido didn't do it like that in the factory? It would have been cheaper and taken less man-hours.

Oh. I also once changed a LHD Burstner to RHD and fitted a more powerful turbo engine at the same time - but that is another story, and it was a waste of time.
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Post by Dare-devil-dennis Tue May 03, 2022 2:25 pm

Thanks.
Of course, the inside wall in the boiler area is as inaccessible as the boiler (if not more so). My stud finder cannot see through the aluminium outer walls. I will be going to the factory in a few weeks time. I will try to find out then.
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Post by gassygassy Tue May 03, 2022 6:26 pm

Ah. Before you go, download (if you haven't got it in the documentation that came with the vehicle) the Truma installation and servicing manual, show it to A/S and ask them why they don't install it in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions. If the discussion leads that way you can tell them that all the warranties should be void.

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Post by Dare-devil-dennis Sun Jul 31, 2022 12:57 am

***WARNING***

In my post above, I advocated using a fridge vent to get access to the boiler. PLEASE DON'T TRY THIS!
it has been pointed out by the man who knows at Willersey service centre that the flue gas will be drawn into the van due to its proximity. This would be very dangerous- potentially deadly.

The only way is to use a toilet cassette door which will seal properly. I asked for a price for this work, but I fear it will be expensive.

Embarrassed - Dennis. confused3.
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Post by Gromit Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:17 pm

Dare-devil-dennis wrote:
***WARNING***

In my post above, I advocated using a fridge vent to get access to the boiler. PLEASE DON'T TRY THIS!
it has been pointed out by the man who knows at Willersey service centre that the flue gas will be drawn into the van due to its proximity. This would be very dangerous- potentially deadly.

The only way is to use a toilet cassette door which will seal properly. I asked for a price for this work, but I fear it will be expensive.

Embarrassed - Dennis. confused3.
That's more or less what I used to provide easy access to the panel Dennis, with a sheet of (about 2mm) aluminium underneath to hermetically seal it.

I chickened out, so the hole in the van wall was cut by the dealer, and to miss the woodwork (only just!!!) he managed to drill a tiny pilot hole from inside. I then got a vent, probably from eBay, about a foot square to cover the hole. I cut the aluminium sheet to the same size, and sandwiched it between the van wall and the vent with plenty of bath sealant. Not Sikaflex or similar, because the whole point was to have something easy to remove if necessary.

The dealer had a spare toilet door which I could have had for nothing, but it was too big, and was going to be too much trouble to avoid the woodwork, and the substantial wiring loom in close proximity. I agree that it would be very expensive to have a toilet door fitted, as it's far from straightforward and fraught with danger!! I think Messrs A/S would deliberately scare you off with an exhorbitant price!!

I'll post a photo if you would like to see the outside wall of our van. It doesn't really look out of place at all, and has attracted only one curious comment in the several years since it was done.

Needless to say I've never needed to use it, but the peace of mind has been worth it, after the fuse had previously blown twice!

I have a separate modification to keep the panel cool(er) using a couple of computer fans. I could probably be persuaded to describe it if you are interested.

Cheers
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Post by Dare-devil-dennis Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:35 pm

Yes, Well done! Project may be back on...

As the ASOC technical officer, I had access to the factory and took the opportunity to look at a part built Bourton. Above the wheel arch (which is where my boiler is, there is no woodwork in that part of the side wall in the space between the wardrobe walls, so access would (should) be danger free. Of course you are correct, sealing the access hole properly and disguising it with a fridge vent seems like the way to go. 

It will absolutely guarantee that I will no longer, ever, need access to the boiler - unless I am travelling without tools!

Best
Dennis
ps. yes, please post and send me pics (I love pics) [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and also your cooling solution.
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Post by Gromit Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:13 pm

Pics to follow Dennis.

The cooling system is easy. The piccy shows the vents I used, and their position, so no need to explain. I couldn't get a matching colour, but the contrast doesn't jar with me. I just might try to find matching ones one day, but I doubt it!

One fan is set to suck air into the void, and it has a length of corrugated tubing taped in place so the sucked in cool air goes straight to the side wall where the panel is located.

The other fan blows out from the void into the van so that in the winter we get a small additional warm air supply. It's probably not necessary, but it looks better balanced with two vents, as you can see from the piccy.

Judging from the amount of heat that comes out, it appears to be quite effective. I just leave the fans permanently switched on all the time, whether we are using the heater or just the hot water, They are virtually silent, and are needed only when on hookup and using the heater on electric, so it works well.

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Last edited by Gromit on Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Gromit Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:22 pm

Photo of the external vent mentioned above.

(Your email address doesn't work. I sent the fans photo and it bounced back???)

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Post by Dare-devil-dennis Wed Aug 03, 2022 2:00 pm

DOH! 

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Only been using this for four years!

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Post by gassygassy Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:11 pm

Dare-devil-dennis wrote:
***WARNING***

In my post above, I advocated using a fridge vent to get access to the boiler. PLEASE DON'T TRY THIS!
it has been pointed out by the man who knows at Willersey service centre that the flue gas will be drawn into the van due to its proximity. This would be very dangerous- potentially deadly.

The only way is to use a toilet cassette door which will seal properly. I asked for a price for this work, but I fear it will be expensive.

Embarrassed - Dennis. confused3.
I now see some confusion as to where Denis originally proposed a vent, and where I said it would be a good idea. I hope you all realised that I was proposing ventilating the living area wall of the boiler, not the outer body wall. The AS advice is correct, don't put a vent near the outside flue.
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Post by Boggie Wed Jul 05, 2023 9:38 pm

My wife and I just spent 5 glorious weeks Touring SW France in our 2019 Bourton, returning home on 29th June. The week before coming home, and after a flash storm and power cut on the campsite, the Truma boiler refused to function on electricity with an error code which said no 230v power. All the MCB’s were ok, and I checked all the fuses on the Sargent panel The operating instructions said to check the 230V fuse, but I found this impossible to do because the boiler control panel fuses are tight up against the external wall. I would need to remove the hold down screws in order to move or remove the boiler in order to check the 2 fuses and do a reset, plus remove the drawer and front panel under the wardrobe.

I decided that troubleshooting the problem could wait for another week as we could still heat water by gas for tea making and we were using on site facilities and showers.
I searched on this forum and found the article by gassygassy about rotating the boiler to make the controls more accessible and decided that If  needed to remove the boiler anyway to access the controls, I might as well undertake the boiler rotation too.
I have to say that I was apprentice trained in the glass manufacturing industry where gas combustion furnaces are used for melting raw materials into glass, so a minor re-routing of a small bore gas feed pipe wasn’t going to phase me. Most of  the other work involved with water pipes and cables was all unplug and re-plug.
The weekend after returning home I commenced work and followed the instructions so well detailed in gassygassy’s article, starting by removing the carpets, then the drawer and front closing panel below the wardrobe.
After shutting down all the electrics and detaching the leisure battery, I drained out the boiler and associated pipework, and removed the hot and cold water tubes.
The hot air tubes each had one screw fixing at the air outlets on the boiler and these just pulled out. After that, the two clamps securing the air intake and exhaust were released and the black hose pulled off the boiler.
 I noted that the exhaust hose is not central at the boiler, but offset. This is so that the clamp screw can be positioned at the widest offset on re installation.
I was amazed at how chaotic the wiring looked, but by tagging the wires and their location at their connections, it was very simple. All the wires were plenty long enough and I was able to pull them back from the rear of the boiler and re route them up the front.[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
After rotating the boiler, The wires and tubes reattached according to the Truma installation guidelines.

In his article, GassyGassy suggested the gas supply pile to the boiler was 10 mm, but on our Bourton  it was 10mm up to the manifold with the shut-off valves, then 8 mm OD to the boiler, oven and grill. As he suggested, the pipe was cut on its vertical run down from the shut off manifold and carefully reshaped to suit the new gas inlet position. The reconnection to the supply line was made using proprietary compression fittings and then leak tested.

Another thing I noticed was that the platform on which the boiler sat looked rather flimsy and sagging a little in the middle, as the boiler full of water will weigh around 15kg to 20 kg, and hitting a pothole on the road would  put quite a stress on it. I took the opportunity to put a strengthened under the platform.
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The support added at the front end of the boiler platform, the rear is supported by the wheel arch.

I only hit one glitch during the job, which was that after  routing the 
Water pipework, the cold feed into the boiler developed a leak, so I lost a day awaiting for a new replacement push fit elbow, which thankfully stopped the leak immediately it was installed and the boiler was successfully  leak tested and filled.
Refitting the exhaust and air inlet flex was straightforward. By pushing the outer sleeve backwards it allowed me to grab hold of the inner aluminium sleeve and  pull it so I could grab hold and stretch it to get a good refit onto its spigot, remembering to position the retaining clamp screw correctly so the outer sleeve could fit over it. The outer sleeve was also stretched into position and its jubilee clip refitted.
At this point I removed the circuit board cover and tested both the 12 volt fuse and the 230volt fuse and they were both good. The 230 volt lead to the boiler had enough coils in the electrical compartment under the  Sargent box that after bit of untangling it was long enough to reach its new position.
After switching on the electrics I checked there was  12 volts dc at the control board and then I pressed and held the reset button on the circuit board for a count of 5 secs, followed the Truma guidelines for start up, setting the hot water  on electric only. The gas was turned on. There were a couple of audible clicks.
Then the moment of truth, The Red LED on the circuit board illuminated, then the Orange, then the green confirming the start up was normal, and within a few minutes I could feel the  heat from the boiler. At the small square Truma interface, the warning triangle had disappeared off the screen and no fault codes.
After leaving the boiler on for about 39 mins with no issues, I replaced all the furniture then switched off the boiler. Result!

WAS IT WORTH DOING THE JOB?
It was fiddly, working in a cramped space, and It took a couple of mornings to complete, but with the boiler rotated 180 deg, the control Circuit board is now facing the wardrobe closing panel, which means that in future to check the fuses, the operation of the LED’s or press the reset button, all I have to do is remove the drawer from under the wardrobe and clip off the circuit board cover which I can now clearly see.
Many thanks to gassygassy for his excellent article and for sending me the hyperlink to the Truma installation guidelines which were very informative.
Hope you find this helpful,
Boggie.




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Sorry that one photo inserted twice!
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Post by gassygassy Thu Jul 06, 2023 11:53 am

Well done boggie, I am glad that someone agrees with me that this is a better way to install the Truma and I have no idea why A/S don't do it this way. I repeat my assertion that A/S do not install them in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions. Therefore as a gas safety inspection should check that a gas appliance is installed in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions, all such A/S vehicles with them installed incorrectly should fail the gas safety test.
One could say that from now on if you have to access the pcb you can just do it from the front, but on the other hand, as it will now not overheat, you will never have to access the pcb and fuse and reset button!
I had thought of sending an article to MMM on how to do this, but I am sure they would not publish it because A/S are a major revenue resource to them, and they would not want to encourage Joe / Josephene Public to do a gas job - although it is perfectly legal to work on your own gas appliance. Obviously it is not a good idea to work on your own gas appliance unless you are competent and capable.

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Post by Guest Thu Jul 06, 2023 2:19 pm

when I had to reset, used a mirror to see the circuit board, did buy a 10 inch marine hatch to insert into the cupboard floor above the circuit board for easy access, but never got around to doing it
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Post by Dbvwt Thu Jul 06, 2023 3:03 pm

Sorry to butt into this Thread (and great work by the way guys with this mod) but I haven’t actually got a reset button on my PCB. Assuming the fuse/fuses are ok, wouldn’t simply removing the 240v and 12v effectively be a reset?
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Post by gassygassy Thu Jul 06, 2023 9:21 pm

You don't have a reset button on your PCB? You don't know what fun you are missing Dvbwt  [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
The serious answer is 'I don't know'. Sorry. You'll just have to try it - but there is the possibility that it will never fail . . . . .

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Post by Dbvwt Thu Jul 06, 2023 9:28 pm

There were some units around the time that my van was built that didn’t have a reset button GG.  Why, I’ve no idea?
Touch wood I’ve had no problems in 5 years.
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