Huge concern!

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Huge concern!

Post by m8form8 on Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:21 am

Anyone else share my deep concern for the total lack of help and support available to the challenging people on the edges. Watching "Skint" on Channel 4 I really do question the morality of no hours contracts and lack of social housing. How can we who are OK in society stand back and watch kids grow up to end up homeless and raiding rubbish bins for food and shelter in this country? It seems this country has forgotten that charity begins at home and all that matters is how the super rich can gain. Surely we need to do more to help those who are less fortunate than ourselves? 
I do know many look like lost causes on drugs and drinking cheap cider, but quite frankly what would you do if life was so hopeless that your sleeping in a shed on a washing machine or camping out in empty buildings. Constant cuts in benefits see their numbers are actually rising not diminishing.  Surely this can not be allowed to carry on, soon we will have a class of society of the hopeless who will hit out at those of us between the super rich and the poor! That's us.Surely modern society needs to be more philanthropic?
Surely I am not the only one concerned at this?
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Re: Huge concern!

Post by maricardo on Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:14 am

I remember as a kid immediately post war there was a chronic shortage of housing due to bomb damage.  The solution at that time was the "pre-fab" and pre-fab housing estates sprang up everywhere. I think they were put up in a matter of hours.  When they were eventually removed sometime during the 60's people were reluctant to move out as they became attached to them.  I wonder why  a modern equivelant to the prefab is not considered to relieve the present housing crisis?
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Re: Huge concern!

Post by Dutto on Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:34 am

Hi there,

I refer you to the following speech made on October 31st 1987 ....

http://briandeer.com/social/thatcher-society.htm

After you have read the article you may then decide whether or not you subscribe to the theory that "There is no such thing as society."

I particularly like the comment ....

"There's no such thing as entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation."

.... which arrogantly assumes that ALL people have the education, intelligence and opportunity to exercise their very limited choices; which they do not.

We used to have a society whereby the strong supported the weak.  A situation espoused by ALL of the major religions, but in the 1980's the UK electorate supported the dismantling of our society and the introduction of the "dog eat dog" situation that we see today.

Never forget that it was done to support political dogma and that was driven by a media frenzy of fear.  It also had the underlying benefit of lining the pockets of people who were already affluent; which is why the gap between the rich and the poor has NEVER been so great as it is today. 

I doubt if our society will change within my lifetime so I take comfort from the teachings of my childhood which tells me that the lady concerned will have paid for her sins and will be rotting in the hell that she so richly deserves.

Best regards,
drinksallround


PS

In the 1970's "computerisation" was coming to the fore and we were all being told that the Leisure Industry would be incredibly important to us.

Why?

Well, they were getting excited by the fact that we would all be working a ten-hour week and wondering what we would be doing with our spare time.

So what happened?


Some of us are retired, some of us are still working 60+ hours a week, some of us are "working" on Zero Hours contracts and a lot of us are out of work and relying on benefits.

Oh, and a chosen few are doing little or no work but reaping the benefits of a society where they see their wealth as an "entitlement" for which they have to meet no "obligations".

So that little quotation I gave above only seems to apply to the poor and disadvantaged in our society eh? tap_fingers tap_fingers tap_fingers

Or am I being cynical again!! Whistle1 Whistle1 Whistle1

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Re: Huge concern!

Post by m8form8 on Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:35 am

I think Dutto cynicism is called for in part, as for the prefabs suggested we have them in Brighton and I have to say a brilliant idea consisting  of Old Containers stacked on top of each other after being adapted into small apartments. Simple to create i think the problem is government is not looking to help, except wealthy developers to build more executive style homes for the so called housing shortage. I know our expectations have changed in the growing middle classes but really I think Thatcher did a huge amount of damage selling off local authority housing stocks, now Cameron says sell of housing association stuff at bargain prices. I had a council flat, I moved out and did not buy it as did not approve of the sales. My mum and Dad struggled post war buying a 2 up two down free and my mother helping build a bathroom on the back while pregnant. I have to say it angers me that others got it done free paid little rent and got a house for sixpence at the end. Fine if there was no longer a need for social housing, but that is not the case. 
Oh dear oh dear such a mess for youngsters starting out today so sad to see them sleeping on a washing machine in a shed. As you say Dutto I hope she is paying the price, sadly I doubt it. confused3
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Re: Huge concern!

Post by Peter Brown on Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:38 pm

Having been responsible for 23 years for a person with severe mental disability following a road traffic accident, I have extensive experience of interfacing with social services and benefits assessment clinics.  I have witnessed first-hand the rise and rise of professional leeches who are expert at sucking benefits from our system.  A severe clamp down on the system is long overdue and I am so pleased that at last it is happening despite all of the extra work and commitment that is needed from me to ensure the person I am responsible for continues to receive appropriate support.  It is inevitable that some vulnerable people at the edges of society will suffer as social service workers are now charged with saving money not people so if you feel strongly then man a food bank or support shelter (but don't give them more cash) – don’t just complain about the state of society.

My parents took out a mortgage after they both retired to buy their council house.  Paying off that mortgage and owning their own house was one of the proudest events of their married life.  It is a achievement that they regularly reflected on until they died. I am so thankful that they had the opportunity to do so.

I cycled a canal towpath through the centre of Stoke on Trent yesterday and was (pleasantly) astounded at the hundreds of new low cost houses that are being built as part of the city’s regeneration.  There is certainly no lack of intent to help the less well off here.

Peter
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Re: Huge concern!

Post by Dutto on Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:39 pm

Peter,

What a lovely phrase "saving money and not people"; and oh how true.

Our disabled grandson (cerebral palsy) took a call one day from a really nice person from Social Services who asked how he was getting along.

As usual, forever optimistic and with a zest for life that does us proud, he explained how he managed to cope despite the fits, falls and struggle to walk any distance.

They chatted away about this and that and the nice person explained how she had enjoyed their conversation ....

.... and then used it to knock £20 a week off his Disability Allowance!

This was on the basis that he seemed to be coping okay and that his family supported him. tap_fingers tap_fingers

I hope there is still room for her alongside Maggie! allthumbz

Best regards,
drinksallround
Ian

PS

I agree with getting rid of the "leeches who are sucking benefits from our system" .... allthumbz

.... but could we please start with the ones that are actually stealing from us by failing to pay their taxes .... allthumbz allthumbz

.... and then move on to the ones that have two or more palaces but still take money from us? allthumbz   allthumbz   allthumbz 

Maybe when our "betters" start to pay their way the rest of us will follow their example instead of having to put up with their hypocrisy! champagne champagne

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Re: Huge concern!

Post by Peter Brown on Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:55 pm

Dutto wrote:

They chatted away about this and that and the nice person explained how she had enjoyed their conversation ....

.... and then used it to knock £20 a week off his Disability Allowance!

This was on the basis that he seemed to be coping okay and that his family supported him.


In my experience a 'please explain' letter from your MP to the County Council Senior Manager responsible for Disability gets that sort of action hastily reviewed.  I've had to resort to that twice now - they never learn!

Peter
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Re: Huge concern!

Post by Dutto on Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:37 pm

Peter Brown wrote:
Dutto wrote:

They chatted away about this and that and the nice person explained how she had enjoyed their conversation ....

.... and then used it to knock £20 a week off his Disability Allowance!

This was on the basis that he seemed to be coping okay and that his family supported him.


In my experience a 'please explain' letter from your MP to the County Council Senior Manager responsible for Disability gets that sort of action hastily reviewed.  I've had to resort to that twice now - they never learn!

Peter
Peter,

Thanks for that but I don't think it would help. tap_fingers tap_fingers

The explanatory letter that came with the cut in benefits quoted the lad's own words; and totally ignored the fact that he is an upbeat kind of lad who does his best with what God gave him.

I well remember a comment he made when he was aged about five.  His third attempt to put food in his mouth had resulted in another spoonful of food bouncing off his cheek, at which point he turned to his Mum with a smile and said "Cerebral palsy isn't easy is it?"

The upside is that he has carried that attitude into adulthood but I do believe that "society" is currently letting him (and thousands more like him) down in the name of an austerity programme that very few of the more affluent amongst us even know exists.

Thanks again. allthumbz

Best regards,
drinksallround
Ian

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Re: Huge concern!

Post by m8form8 on Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:45 pm

I do not agree Peter, affordable housing is a long way away for many, even having enough for food is the starting point for them. I agree a clampdown on fraud was needed it was actually very small, but it cost far more to clamp down in human lives and genuine claimants to achieve riches for the companies who did it on behalf of the recent government. 
No one has clamped down on those who have milked the country of money at the other end of the social scale, they have just found ways to get a round different legislation.
I really still do not understand how we live in a country where a boy, you may call him stupid or at a  disadvantage but he is a human being and he is raiding bins to live and sleeping on a washing machine in a shed. That just can not be right. He incidentally is not alone even one lad who had a zero hours contract and was doing his best was sleeping on a friends floor as unable to afford a roof over his head. This sort of thing is nothing short of disgusting in one of the richest countries in the world.
I remain deeply concerned!
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Re: Huge concern!

Post by Dutto on Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:02 am

Hi there,

I just want to pick up on something posted by Peter and dispel the myth that we are a nation of "benefit cheats".

Here are two separate articles from 2014.  One from the Daily Telegraph and one from The Guardian.  The figures speak for themselves.

The Daily Telegraph on 28th November 2014 stated ....

"In 2014, 4.9 million (92.6 per cent) working age benefit claimants were British
while only 131,000 (2.5 per cent) were EU nationals.
The number of recipients from outside of the UK — but not from the EU — was 264,000 (five per cent)."


Forget about the non British figures (that is a scare story for another debate) just concentrate on the fact that 4.9 million British people were "claiming benefits".

Now look at an article from The Guardian posted on the 16th October 2014 ....

"UK unemployment has fallen below the 2 million mark
for the first time since the global financial system was on the brink of collapse six years ago."

Now, I am no mathematician but the two sets of figures show that AT LEAST 2.9 million British people in the UK were working and LEGALLY claiming benefits.

Why?

The Government appreciates that even though these people are working (sometimes over 40 hours per week) they are not getting a living wage!

These people are NOT "benefits cheats".  They are hard working people who are trying their best ....

.... and we are subsidising their employers by allowing them to pay wages that are not high enough to live on.

Whenever you hear the phrase "benefits cheat" please turn your attention to the main culprits.

They are the employers who use the benefits system to subsidise their businesses
so that they may trouser excess profits AT OUR EXPENSE.

Best regards,
drinksallround
Ian

References:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11255425/How-much-do-immigrants-really-claim-in-benefits.html

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/oct/15/uk-unemployment-falls-6-percent-lowest-lehman-brothers


Last edited by Dutto on Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:10 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Add references.)

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Re: Huge concern!

Post by m8form8 on Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:00 am

Exactly and what about MPs who robbed the country blind with so called expenses? None of them was made homeless or go to prison for false claims. 
Now Ian here is a real life situation...
I have a friend who is a millionaire he grew up in a council house, his father worked for Ford on the shop floor. As a child in the 60s they went to Spain and France for their holidays in new cars. My Father struggled bought a house with a big mortgage and wearing his bowler hat came home with packages of brown paper and string on the train from London every week. He worked as a buying clerk in those days, paid his own fees to go to night school and was too proud to admit he scavenged wood thrown out across the road from his office to burn on the fire to keep us warm. We never had holidays staying anywhere expensive often with relatives he did not own a car until quite late, it was an old banger then, in the 60 s. 
He eventually got made redundant for 6 months he struggled to find another job and would not claim anything even though he had 3 children to support,(we lived on part time shop worker money my mother provided) eventually he did so and worked hard and ended up in senior management. He made his last mortgage payment on his retirement. 
He had a wife and 3 children he supported as best he could, I often had hand me downs as a child.
My friend now a millionaire made most of his money running his own business in Brighton, it was a B&B and he bought the house next door as a private residence sing it as overflow accommodation for the B&B another 6 rooms!, never declared it for tax purposes so actually never paid all the tax he ought to have done. His father bought his council house and the son inherited it tax free. He sold his B&B keeping the residential registered house.Both were already paid for before he inherited. He a year later separately sold the residential one and made over a million from the properties. He bought them both cheap. He retied to Devon. 
He like some others calls people leeches on society for claiming benefits and states he worked for what he has and others ought to do the same, says he never claimed benefits. 
He had a huge lump sum (London Prices) from the sale of a house his father bought, at who's loss?  He failed to contribute to the full extent his tax liability for a lot of years 20. He always had new clothes as a child and holidays I could only dream of because his parents were lucky to get a council house. 
I have to bite my tongue an awful lot when he starts getting political and going on about so called benefit cheats! He employed a woman on less than the minimum hourly rate cash when she was on benefits she did all the cleaning at the guest house. 
Now do not get me wrong, he is a friend and has lots of good points, but I know who I think has been the biggest leech on society. I will give you a clue not the lady who worked for cash on benefits to make ends meet.
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Re: Huge concern!

Post by groundhog on Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:43 am

Yes we are certainly a rich Country, we only have a debt in Q1 2015 of 1.56trillion pounds which is 81.58% of GDP.Boy our we a rich Country.

Compare that to the poor Nigerian's, where life is perfect, no corrupt Politicians there and a National debt of 50 billion pounds (64.3%) ..... Iraq where the debt to GDP is 37%.... Pakistan 63.3%, shall I go on?

Clarify please, are these terrible Zero hours contracts the same as we used to call casual labour, part time work etc?

Let me explain, I owned a company which supplied aircraft to airlines Worldwide in case of failure of their own equipment or extensive delays. Sometimes our aircraft would sit on the ground for days or weeks on end with no work, other times they would be flying their socks off. All the crews were contracted on a zero guaranteed hours contract, some were retired cabin crew, some worked for other airlines but were rostered off but all were grateful for the extra work. In terms of salaries BA's crews wouldn't have got out of bed for what we paid.

Had we not used that arrangement do you seriously think we could have sustained the business paying staff full time wages and earning the UK millions of dollars of income?

There are rich people who should be locked up for the tax they dodge, there are poor people who should be locked up for the stunts they pull and people in the middle who are no better.

The media cause this terrible blame the rich, blame the poor culture. It exists throughout society, throughout the World, it is human nature.I agree entirely those that can should and those that can't need our support but there will always be the few...

I believe Dutto will agree and has worked in West Africa, go there and you will see what poor really is. Grubbing around in the mud for the odd grain or atrocities I find too distressing to post here to enable them to get money, they would love a washing machine to live in!! Remember the numbers and compare how 'rich' our two countries are?

Finally, charity begins at home, great. Where does home end though? End of the drive, up the street, across town, neighbouring countries or is it all mankind, thinking especially of those in Kathmandu at the moment.

There are two sides to every story.
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Re: Huge concern!

Post by Dutto on Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:46 am

OOOoooohhh!!!  That touched a nerve.

I have worked in many places across the world and I have seen poverty and deprivation in their extreme cases.

As a "for instance", the house that I was allocated in Iran was so large that four adults could (and did) play table-tennis around a full sized tennis-table in the hallway ....

.... and just across the road there was a village where the people lived in small mud huts, burned dung for fuel and got their water from a seep in the ground.

We do indeed live charmed lives in a wealthy and well appointed country but we live with levels of lies and corruption that are so huge that they are systemic within our society.

National Debt versus Gross Domestic Product.

If you check out the history you will find that since records began (around the 1700's) the UK has ALWAYS been in debt, the debt has NEVER been less than 50% of GDP and at it's peak the debt was as much as 250% of the GDP.

In other words the situation we see today is NOT a new situation; just one that some politicians are using to denigrate some other politicians.

What makes the current debt noteworthy is that previous "highs" were caused by war whereas the current crisis was caused by the collapse of the international banking system.

http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk_national_debt_chart.html

Benefits Claimants

When considering "leeches" we have to take a look at the royal family because they are one of the biggest receivers of "benefits".

Remember my plea that we start with the claimants with two or more palaces?  How about this quote from last week's Independent ....

"The cost of the monarchy to the taxpayer rose by nearly six per cent last year
- more than double the rate of inflation -
as the royal household bucked the trend for austerity
and dramatically increased spending on the upkeep of its palaces."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/cost-of-royal-family-rises-twice-as-fast-as-inflation-9563293.html

Or how about The Guardian from last year ....

"The royal utility bill has also risen over the past year.
Electricity now costs £0.7m, gas £1m, water £0.2m and the royal telephone bill is £0.2m.
The average energy bill in the UK is £1,267 meaning that the royal bill is the equivalent of around 2,288 british households."

http://www.theguardian.com/news/reality-check/2014/jan/28/how-much-do-the-royal-family-spend-and-are-they-down-to-their-last-million

Non-Doms

Here's a cute little list of people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_with_non-domiciled_status_in_the_UK

They are the ones that exert influence and power within the UK but don't live here because thy may have to pay tax.

Much as I enjoy watching Lewis Hamilton win a Grand Prix it really make my teeth ache to see him waving a Union Jack!!

Oh, by the way, many of the media tycoons are themselves Non-Doms so when you see all the scare stories about Non Doms leaving the UK because they may be expected to pay taxes, please remember that the article will probably be written on behalf of someone who is protecting their own interests.

Here's a great article ....

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-30/rocco-forte-london-non-doms-packing-their-bags-

.... which espouses the views of a man who depends on Non Doms filling his hotels.

Enjoy! allthumbz

Best regards,
drinksallround

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Re: Huge concern!

Post by Dutto on Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:06 am

Oh, a quick PS.

In my opinion, the "Zero Hours" contract is worse than the old casual labour situation.

With the old system you could go and work for ANY employer who cared to wander past the queue of people stood on the street corner seeking work whereas ....

.... with the "Zero Hours" contract you promise your labour to a single employer who may or may not ask you to go to work!

The "Zero Hours" contract system is so one-sided that it makes a mockery of the employment laws we fought for in the 60's and 70's ....

.... and if you claim benefits on those weeks when your employer doesn't give you any work you are branded a "benefits cheat"!

After being forced back to work for reduced pay after the 1926 General Strike my Dad used to say "I was a slave in my own country." and we are fast approaching a similar situation yet again.

Recent changes definitely show that "paternalistic employers" are about as rare as unicorns! tap_fingers tap_fingers

Best regards,
drinksallround

Reference

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1926_United_Kingdom_general_strike


Last edited by Dutto on Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:07 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Add reference)

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Re: Huge concern!

Post by groundhog on Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:24 pm

No raw nerves Dutto, just love winding you up... snigger

You are wrong about Zero hours contracts, SOME are exclusive but the majority are not, in any event I doubt any exclusive contract would stand up in law - even if you were mad enough to sign one!!

Thanks for the reference to the list of non doms..... hilarious!!

Lewis Hamilton, Brit lives in Monaco, works for a German company and races 21 times out of 22 abroad, probably doesn't spend 90 days a year in the UK should be paying tax here?

logic dictates therefore that

Mark Carney, Canadian, working abroad ( like Lewis) for an overseas establishment ( like Lewis) and living abroad ( like Lewis) should be paying tax in Canada? No mention of his contribution as possibly one of the best BoE governors we have ever had.

( Bias as a Brit with Canadian residency forgiven please)

As for James Caan what a bast***!
Pakistani born, lives abroad, created the James Caan Foundation, a wonderful charitable institution and great person to boot.

never let a good story get in the way of the truth and whenever you can always generalise as much as possible.... you know how it goes.

Its the Government's fault, the management's fault, the immigrant's fault, the council's fault and they are all corrupt...

Tosh, utter media driven tosh  drinksallround
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Re: Huge concern!

Post by Dutto on Fri May 01, 2015 11:26 am

groundhog wrote:...........

Lewis Hamilton, Brit lives in Monaco, works for a German company and races 21 times out of 22 abroad, probably doesn't spend 90 days a year in the UK should be paying tax here?

..........
Er .....

".... Brit lives in Monaco ...."  Lewis Hamilton actually lives in Switzerland.  His original announcement was that he wished to "get away from the media scrutiny" but later admitted on Parkinson that "taxation was partly responsible for his decision".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Hamilton

".... works for a German company ...." Actually the name of the company he works for is "Mercedes AMG Petronas".  Petronas is "fully owned by the Malaysian Government"; and there are twenty other "partners" from around the world.  Incidentally, since all of the UK motor industry was acquired by foreign firms almost everyone in the UK motor industry works for a foreign firm; and the majority stay here and pay their taxes.

http://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/partners/petronas/

".... races 21 times out of 22 abroad ...." Of course he does but "As in past seasons, eight of the 11 teams racing in 2014 are based in the UK, including big names such as Red Bull, McLaren, Mercedes and Lotus."  I don't for one moment think that they fly the car out to Switzerland so that Lewis can get in a few practice laps around his estate when they are preparing for a race.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/mar/09/formula-1-f1-engineering-skills-uk-economy

".... probably doesn't spend 90 days a year in the UK ...."  This is the crux of the Non-Dom argument; people who claim Non-Dom status to dodge paying UK taxes and then spend most of their time in the UK.

Monaco (mentioned above) is a popular place for UK tax dodgers and if you have ever been there you will realise that "money" is the only reason anyone would choose to live there; it being a place with a population density higher than the most oppressive UK Council Estate.

Lewis Hamilton and his ilk can wave as many Union Jacks as they like but at the end of the day they are living in Switzerland, Monaco etc just to dodge paying their UK taxes.

Best regards,
drinksallround

PS

I never get wound up and I am always willing to change my stance on any subject .... think_smiley_46 think_smiley_46

.... if I am presented with proof to the contrary. allthumbz allthumbz

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Re: Huge concern!

Post by groundhog on Fri May 01, 2015 4:12 pm

I stand corrected Dutto, of course Lewis moved from Monaco, not sure if he retained his apartment there or not? Jenson Button still resides in Monaco I believe. Yes, I am familiar with Monaco thanks, wouldn't choose to live there myself either, watching the world go by from the Cafe de Paris could get boring after a time!

The rest of your post, I am perfectly aware of all those facts thankyou, they change nothing.

I am still not sure how you balance the argument that a brit living and working abroad should pay his tax in Britain and a Canadian living and working abroad should also pay his tax in Britain?

So looks like we will agree to disagree... allthumbz
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Re: Huge concern!

Post by Dutto on Fri May 01, 2015 9:50 pm

groundhog wrote:.........

I am still not sure how you balance the argument that a brit living and working abroad should pay his tax in Britain and a Canadian living and working abroad should also pay his tax in Britain?

.......
Hi there,

You misunderstand me.  wave   wave

I think that a person should pay the taxes required by the economy from which they generate their income.

The problem is that many UK Non-Doms generate their wealth within the UK economy ....

.... and pretend that they don't live in Britain in order to avoid paying their taxes.

They are no better than any other person who cheats on the UK tax or benefits system; just more wealthy as a result. tap_fingers tap_fingers tap_fingers

Best regards,
drinksallround

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Re: Huge concern!

Post by burlingtonboaby on Fri May 01, 2015 11:22 pm

Bring back the wooden stocks for these bounders and pelt them with rotten eggs.
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Re: Huge concern!

Post by Dutto on Sat May 02, 2015 10:44 am

burlingtonboaby wrote:Bring back the wooden stocks for these bounders and pelt them with rotten eggs.
Personally, I would go for hard-boiled eggs and a catapult from six feet!!  allthumbz   allthumbz   allthumbz

drinksallround

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Re: Huge concern!

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