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Premium and Winter Packs.

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Post by Bad Penny on Thu Dec 26, 2013 1:04 pm

Do not assume you get everything you pay for. On examination of the underside of my new Broadway EK TB LP and out of curiosity more than any other reason, on one of our rare fine days, I decided to take a peek to see how it looked underneath.
What I saw was that the fresh and waste water tanks' heater blankets had not been fitted. These are part of the winter pack which cost £295.
This has led me to wonder if the Truma Combi heater upgrade has taken place or not, as this is also part of the winter pack. How can I tell by just looking at the boiler? I'm at a loss I'm afraid.
The other missing item is the Al-ko Airtop suspension system, part of the Premium Pack £2,500. SO YOU SEE NEVER ASSUME ANYTHING.

As it's the holiday period, I am not yet able to contact the dealer to report this and I don't think for one minute it will not be rectified, but it is very frustrating and will mean another round trip costing about fifty pounds in diesel.
So beware you fellow motorhome people, you just never know!!!!

Hope you all had a great Christmas.
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Post by Dutto on Thu Dec 26, 2013 1:18 pm

Ouch!!!

I would definitely point out the cost of getting to and from the Dealer and equally definitely ask for a contribution.

If you suggest that you select something of equal value from their selection of accessories they may be more amenable as they don't pay the full whack; but you get the equivalent in ££££'s.

Best regards and a great 2014!
 drinksallround

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Post by bernieproberts on Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:08 pm

Hi Penny ,
It looks to me as if you received the 2013 model and not the 2014 model. When I collected my 2013 Nuevo ES we found the aerial was not fitted which ment a long drive back to Auto-Sleepers. While there I got them to fix other problems.
Hope all goes well.
 
Regards Bernie

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Post by Bad Penny on Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:37 am

Hi Bernie.

It is supposed to be the 2014 model and does have the features such as blinds instead of curtains etc. It was built during November and delivered to the dealer early December. Perhaps the production team had not been informed that the two missing items had been added to the packs for 2014, although I doubt that. I can't believe that production control did not match vehicle to customers order. As for the missing heater blankets, these are part of the category G3 insulation classification for all vehicles for 2014, so perhaps you are right Bernie, maybe this vehicle has been treated as a 2013 model or maybe half and half.
Prior to this vehicle, I owned a German motorhome which was delivered exactly to spec, why can't it be done in this country.  
I can't put wheels in motion to get this resolved untill January 2nd at the earliest, as the dealer is off until then, but I am trying to remain cool.

We are really looking forward to using the motorhome. So no more whinging from me.

Thanks for your input Bernie
Have a great 2014 in your Nuevo ES
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Post by mikethebike on Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:18 pm

Its almost unbelievable,but then this lack of QC and dealer pre delivery inspection is common.
Its not up to customers to inspect their van and notify the dealer whats missing!
I would be demanding that they collect the van and do a full check of spec to order. At their cost.
I wonder how many owners are using new vans without the spec ordered?
It could be quite a few.
My sympathy to you and your patience.

regards
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Post by journeyman on Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:54 pm

This type of problem is endemic in the UK M/Home industry, you buy a new van, you also buy a set of QC issues….A trawl through the various forums confirms this. QC seems to be a failure at both the manufacturer and dealer, both are at fault. Buying something that costs in excess of 45k, you would expect your dealer to also QC the van before handing it to you…Basic stuff. I don't think I would ever buy a brand new van, I don't need the stress. The industries reputation amongst us the user, I think is pretty dire, we only put up with it because we love the freedom the van provides. But its not right and winds me up. Lets see how you get on….I would expect them to pay the diesel costs without question…..That would seem like common decency.

Hope it gets sorted quickly.

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Post by mikethebike on Fri Dec 27, 2013 5:53 pm

Hi BadPenny,
                       
                 Thinking on i would write to the MD and also the dealer.
Verbal  Complaints are more difficult to resolve. I would be suggesting that you should get legal advice.
I would also suggest you cost all your expenditure and maybe loss of use of the vehicle.
If you let them get away with it it will continue as it has for many years.See 9828 having bad problems 6 years ago.

regards

Mike
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Post by jwells on Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:48 pm

I too have just picked up a 2014 model Nuevo with Premium and Winter Packs! I too have many unanswered questions including the Truma heater upgrade - even the dealers do not know what they are selling, there is no information in the delivery pack, and I feel I have had the privilege to pay £50k to carry out a Quality Audit of a vehicle that was displayed at the NEC and one would expected to have been of the highest standard - how naïve of me!! What a way to spend Christmas!
To be fair on the dealer and Auto Sleeper I have yet to throw my next finds/Non finds at them - when they are back next week.
My exploration work regarding the Truma:- according to the Truma site - the  Combi heater upgrade should include the Frost Control Heating Element Pt. No. 70070-01 fitted to the Frost Control Dump Valve and which connects to connector number plug 42 on the Combi unit. It is not fitted on mine, but there is a loose piece of stepped down air trunking heating up the space under the seat locker along with my 2 leisure batteries(another story!!!!!!!!!!) this I presume is to stop the dump valve freezing the Auto Sleeper way! confused3 

Next the water tank heater blankets - these are fitted to my Nuevo - however no one could tell me how they work!
Again while checking out the leisure batteries, I noticed tucked away under the seat, an illuminated switch with a  small label giving a clue to its purpose - there was a second similar switch below it. It turns out these are the switches that control the tank heaters! A word of warning - these switches are powered directly from the leisure battery, and it would appear that should you inadvertently forget them and leave them on, then you will end up with a very flat battery. I have no idea what power the two heater blankets draw. Why on earth these switches have been buried out of sight under a seat, and not fitted along side all the other electrics in the wardrobe, I cannot imagine!!!!!!!!!! confused3 

Why did I buy a new Van? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Watch this space for the next instalment  - there are plenty more!!!
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Post by Peterm on Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:18 pm

I despair of AS ever designing or making a van which is more than a DIY hobbyist's delight.

Next year maybe?
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Post by mikethebike on Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:45 pm

To be fair ,other makes have problems.  It seems that they can sell all they make and not bother to much about quality. When i was in business, quality was talked about a lot,but it was often low prices that was wanted.

regards

Mike
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Post by bernieproberts on Sat Dec 28, 2013 1:33 pm

Hi jwells,
I bought a 2013 Nuevo ES which didn’t have the winter pack. I am thinking of having it retro fitted. As you have investigated the installation there are some questions I have you may be able to answer. Does the wiring from the heat pads go through the Sargent EC328 unit or is it connected directly to the habitation battery? If it is inadvertently switched on in cold weather the Sargent unit will protect the habitation battery by giving a warning and switching the power off. If it is connected directly to the habitation battery there is no protection. Also are the tanks and pipes insulated against cold winds etc?
 
Regards Bernie

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Post by Paulmold on Sat Dec 28, 2013 3:01 pm

I've just been looking at a 'new to me' name in motorhomes that all come fully winterised. All van conversions, one model has a longitudinal double bed with massive storage under, 4 belted seats (and sleeps 4) and even a sliding flyscreen across the sliding door. All in a vehicle only 5.41 metres long and at £43k. Some very innovative touches.
I think AS could do with looking for ideas from this maker. If you want to know who, PM me. Only one dealer in UK at the moment but the vehicles are all available in RHD.
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Post by jwells on Sat Dec 28, 2013 11:09 pm

Bernie, I am glad you are referring to the 'heat pads' and not 'blankets' as AS does! As far as I can tell the feed is directly from the habitation battery via the switches hidden in the seat locker, neither the tanks or pipes  are insulated! I want to use my van in the alpes in winter, so hence my careful look at this installation. So far I have found it pays to take what is written as a guide only!!! I have yet to investigate the EC328 and relays/froststat to operate the heaters without leaving me flat batteries. For some reason my second leisure battery has been wired in parallel (different type and size difference, not even vented overboard - fitted by the service centre!! My next sort it out!!) could have used a second connection on the 328 I believe, and then wired them separately with less chance of flattening everything in one go. Of course the 328 is mounted in the bottom of the wardrobe so you cannot get at the connections!  I have become very wary with all things AS, and find the Forum very interesting - I do however want to get everything sorted and get out there!!!!!!!!!!

Regards John
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Post by Paulmold on Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:07 am

AS refer to 'tank blankets' because that is the suppliers name for them...

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and as for being taken straight from the leisure battery - well I wouldn't want to run them without hook-up which would obviously charge the leisure battery, if you look at the specification for them, you will see that even the smaller 'blanket' consumes 4.0A with a power of 54w....

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Post by Peter Brown on Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:49 am

jwells wrote:For some reason my second leisure battery has been wired in parallel (different type and size difference, not even vented overboard - fitted by the service centre!! My next sort it out!!)

Any additional leisure battery(ies) must be wired in parallel with the primary leisure battery.  This will increase the capacity at 12v, automatically be connected to all the habitation circuitry and facilitate charging by hook up, engine and solar panel if fitted.

The positive connection to the additional battery(ies) must be fused as close to the positive terminal as practical.  If the second battery is adjacent to the first (ideal location but may require a different physical size and electrical capacity to be accommodated) the most efficient way is to connect one directly to the other (by way of the fuses).  If it is necessary to install the second battery at a remote location from the first, the parallel connection can be made at the point where additional wire length is kept to the minimum, often at the PSU/Charger.  In the Sargent units a connection is available for a second leisure battery but it is connected in parallel with the first on the back of the connector.

A technically perfect installation would have two identical batteries but in practice it is not necessary.  If you run the leisure battery to full discharge every time before re-charging then a deep cycle leisure battery is most cost effective, but bearing in mind that every time you start the engine or use the van charger you are recharging at leas partially then that is not necessary.  I have not met anyone who intentionally runs their leisure battery to full discharge.

A general purpose cranking battery is the best compromise and both Ford and Mercedes use their own branded cranking batteries as original fit leisure batteries.  If a second battery is fitted that is of sealed construction then no vent tube is required.  If the second battery is also a general purpose cranking battery and is rated +/- 20 AH to the original you will have no problems in practice for the duty cycle imposed by most AS users.

Paul

Thanks for the pointer to the tank blanket specification.  They are very current hungry and shouldn't be used when not on hook up (or with some other ancillary power supply).  The fact that they switch on at +7 deg C and stay on till +18 deg C means they will be on most of the time and if fitted to both tanks be consuming 8 to 10 amps.  I certainly wouldn't pay to have them installed and would rarely use them if they were.  I've had no problem camping down to -8 deg C

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Post by mikethebike on Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:58 am

Yes Paul, Lookingt at the spec its only 60 watts per heater.BUT i see its set to go at 7degrees and stay on till 18 degrees.I assume that's centigrade!!

A bit excessive in my mind.Would you want to keep full tanks all the time that hot?
Personally for most people, not going to the high alps in winter,a bit of lagging would suffice.IMHO
I spent 3 winters going through France to Spain many years ago,and took no special precautions.
It seems like a extra ,highly profitable extra ,that is sold on the fears of consumers.

best regards

Mike
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Post by Bad Penny on Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:59 pm

Hi Paul and Peter.
Although my heater blankets are missing at the moment, I take your point Peter, regarding 8 to 10 amp usage being excessively high, but there are two isolation switches for each tank under the off side bench on the bulkhead of the lower wardrobe. These certainly could be better positioned, but at least will give some form of control over usage.

Regards The Bad Penny.
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Post by jwells on Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:32 pm

Thanks  for the comments regarding the heater mats - I now have an understanding of the current drain and will take even more care in monitoring their use! There was absolutely no information available to me regarding these when I took delivery of my vehicle, so that is a great help.

Peter
Regarding leisure battery installation - there is 'best practice', 'acceptable practice', and 'bad practice' - differing capacity batteries will cause over/under charging when wired in parallel, as will cable lengths varying between batteries. I thought the EC328 may have had the ability to charge two leisure batteries independently, as per the set up I use on a  boat that charges from two solar cells into two batteries wired in parallel. On this rig I use a German built charger I bought from Maplins, and a very good job it does too!
My real issue with the battery installation is the non venting of one that is NOT low maintenance, but the one fitted at the factory is vented but is low maintenance! I have seen what can happen when battery charging carried out by somebody who was not competent caused the battery to explode in their face - I do not want to have a battery free venting into the space under a seat next to a Combi heater!!

Has anyone actually fitted proper insulation to under floor water tanks for use at very low temperatures? Years ago when in the alpes at -25c we just kept a 20 litre container of water inside the wagon and managed, but being somewhat older now the whole point of the new wagon was not to rough it too much!

Regards John
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Post by journeyman on Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:27 pm

Peter Brown wrote:
Thanks for the pointer to the tank blanket specification.  They are very current hungry and shouldn't be used when not on hook up (or with some other ancillary power supply).  The fact that they switch on at +7 deg C and stay on till +18 deg C means they will be on most of the time and if fitted to both tanks be consuming 8 to 10 amps.  I certainly wouldn't pay to have them installed and would rarely use them if they were.  I've had no problem camping down to -8 deg C

Peter

This shines a light on the Premium package….10amps! Bearing in mind the AS vans are not that well insulated…Better than the tribute, but not by much, how would you add supplementary heat on 16amp feeds? and keep your water heated and all the other things you need to run?….Mind boggles. I think the basic skills explained in the winterisation threads are a better option…Plus lagging.

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Post by Jaytee on Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:16 am

Interesting what you say about lagging as I did mention this to Auto-sleeper when I first got the van as we have the premium pack. Non of the pipes to or from the tanks are lagged and they will at sometime freeze. Scotland a few years back at -12 in the caravan and 'everything' outside or underneath froze.
Their response was 'we don't do it but Swift do' ha ha. Presume they are suggesting I buy a Swift  scratch head 

Re the 10amps; that is at 12v so probably only about .75 amp at 240 (inc losses) so not too much of an issue on EHU.  allthumbz

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Post by mikethebike on Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:01 am

Hi Jaytee,
                   Did i read that right? The pipes are not lagged?
Surely the pipes would freeze before the tank contents.
Regarding the heaters,It will take a long while at 60 watts to heat a tank to the cut off point set.I think from what i have read, this system being sold is poorly designed.
I would not buy that system.
best regards
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Post by Jaytee on Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:16 am

Hi Mike, yes. Certainly the drain pipes and the grey water pipes. Something I will do myself as they are quite exposed especially the grey drain and that would be a nuisance if that could not be drained when full.
The grey drain is fitted with a slight uphill run from the tank so that is something I need to sort with a relatively easy mod.

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Post by bernieproberts on Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:50 pm

Thank you for the information on the Auto-Sleepers heat pads. I think I will be going for the CAK Tank Frost Element which is 30W and consumes 2.5A. It also turns on at 5ºC and off at 10ºC. They provide installation and user instructions on their web site.This together with tank and pipe insulation should meet my needs.
 
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Post by andyiow on Tue Dec 31, 2013 4:43 pm

I have just changed from a Sussex Duo to a Nuevo 2013 EK model. How can I check if my tanks are heated? do they look different and where are the switches when fitted please.
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Post by Peter Brown on Tue Dec 31, 2013 5:46 pm

Photos of an installation would be good if anyone can help - not tonight or tomorrow though!

Peter

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