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Fiamma Bike Rack Failure

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frederic
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The Bargee
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Post by Caraman Sat Jun 15, 2024 6:41 am

Paulmold wrote:Just seen this follow-up on FB to the rack-coming-away problem ...

"We finally had the bike rack fix done today at Marquis Plymouth on our Nuevo. We were the first guinea pigs there but it is done. Two large bolts through the rack, back wall of motorhome, thick bit of wood and metal plate seemingly. £70. 
Fingers crossed that is now sorted."
I wonder if they had it done as a precaution and if it raises the weight limit from 50kg incl. the rack to 60kg excl. the rack?  If they had it done because the rack had dropped off and they had kept within A-S's weight restrictions, I would have thought it would have been covered under warranty or as a gesture of good will.  Whatever, £70 sounds very reasonable.
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Post by CC Sat Jun 15, 2024 9:35 am

This is really disappointing to read, as someone who carries a pair of e-bikes I was really looking forward to using our bike rack especially as it sits considerably lower than the one we used on our last Broadway, making mounting them on the rack easier. Not a fan of the recessed design AS use for their back ends & I’d prefer a flat rear panel, but I did like that the bike rack sits lower than on the previous models. 

MrsCC’s bike is just a Mi-Rider but I have a heavier Haibike which were fine on our last Broadway bike rack as checked & confirmed by Mark at Auto Sleepers when he was there. 

Thinking I may have to invest in a smaller lightweight e-bike, but still concerned at a bike rack that in my very limited engineering or technical knowledge or understanding is just glued to a shiny plastic surface, surely a recipe for disaster  scratch head

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Post by CC Thu Jun 20, 2024 11:09 am

Further to my last post I’ve been looking at obtaining a lighter e-bike, But even the lighter ones out there are coming in at 17-19kg & as my current Haibike weighs just 22kg I’m wondering if it’s worth the expense buying another bike & more importantly it’s unlikely I’ll get anything better quality than my current Haibike on a budget of less than £1,500 

My Haibike weighs 22kg & MrsCC’s Mi-Rider weighs 17.5kg so a combined weight of 39.3kg I’m guessing with the battery packs removed (if these are included in the weights specified) the weight would be slightly lower, slightly under 39kg ??

So would others agree that with these bike weights our Broadway’s bike rack should be able to cope ok without ripping itself off as I’m really worried now after reading the original post by Bowlertilt  shrugg

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Post by Caraman Thu Jun 20, 2024 11:23 am

As far as I can see the Fiamma Carry-Bike Pro C - e-bike - weighs 10 kg.  A-S say the weight limit including the bike rack is 50 kg so that only leaves 40 kg for the bikes, bicycle cover, rear marker, lighting board, lighting board socket if it is attached to the rack, locks and anything else you put on the bikes or rack.  I would say it's going to be very tight.  Much will depend on the actual weight of each bike, assuming the battery pack is removed if it can be removed.  50 kg will put more than this on the rear axle due to weight being transferred off the front axle.  If you go for a tow bar and tow bar mounted bike rack it will increase the rear axle mass even more.  For either option, you need to know your rear axle mass when the van is fully loaded for a trip.
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Post by CC Thu Jun 20, 2024 11:44 am

Yes even with the batteries removed it’s borderline, think the only option is going to be to travel with MrsCC’s Mi-Rider which is foldable inside till we arrive at our destination then place it on the rack so it’s not in the way, far from ideal… Even with just mine 22kg plus as you say the weight of bike rack I’m worried, would have a bike cover fitted and marker board no doubt, but won’t be using a lighting board.

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Post by Caraman Thu Jun 20, 2024 12:10 pm

CC wrote:... would have a bike cover fitted and marker board no doubt but won’t be using a lighting board.
If you do a Forum search you will find quite a bit on lighting boards.  My very first post in 2019 was about it.  I can't remember all the details but the lighting regulations require both vertical sets of rear lights to be viewable from the rear at an angle on either side of the van.  The regulations stipulate what that angle is.  I think its 45 degrees.  If you have a cover on your bikes it will prevent the lights being viewed from one side or the other.  If you don't fit a cover, the bike frame, rims, tyres and rear marker board may still obscure the lights sufficiently to be picked up by a zealous policeman in this country or abroad.  If you don't have a lighting board fitted, whether you have a cover or not, and are involved in some way in an accident, it puts you in a bad place in my opinion.  The CAMC advice is here:

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My lighting board is about 2 kg as is my cover and my marker board is about 1 kg so all 3 together is about 5 kg.

The lighting board is cheap and easy to fit if the VLM5 unit is used.

This wan't a problem with older vans where the lights were lower and bike rack higher.


Last edited by Caraman on Thu Jun 20, 2024 2:36 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Post by frederic Thu Jun 20, 2024 1:11 pm

Has anyone thought about the 'Shock Load' when hitting a pothole or speed bump? this surely would increase the loading on the bond in excess of 50/60kg.
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Post by Caraman Thu Jun 20, 2024 1:14 pm

I think the 50 kg is a static load with a CoG in the middle of the rack.  The dynamic load will always be higher
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Post by CC Thu Jun 20, 2024 3:13 pm

frederic wrote:Has anyone thought about the 'Shock Load' when hitting a pothole or speed bump? this surely would increase the loading on the bond in excess of 50/60kg.
frederic

Agree very worrying Frederic, have to say I’m extremely disappointed with this solution by Auto Sleepers bearing in mind the severity of what could potentially happen in the event the rack fails. I’m very uncomfortable using ours, knowing what I now know.

I’m also wondering how our insurance companies would view this failure in the event of an incident like this, two bikes & a bike rack falling into the path of a vehicle behind could have absolutely devastating consequences & even cause fatalities if someone veered off the road to avoid hitting them shrugg

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Post by The Bargee Thu Jun 20, 2024 8:47 pm

I cannot abide any strange noises when driving, unknown things rolling about etc., or tolerate any worries about an insecure load. With our van we have a towball mounted Atera rack, and that did bounce about a bit disconcertingly, although it is a lot better in that respect now since we fitted smoother riding tyres. Prior to fitting the better tyres I had been thinking of putting a lashing strap around the bikes, just put a bit of tension into the equation, but there are no really suitable places to fit eye bolts on the back of a panel van.


With a coachbuilt or monocoque it might be quite easy to fit a couple of stainless steel eyes to the bodywork to take a ratchet strap and hold the bikes (and rack!) more securely. It won’t improve the load capacity of course but it will stop the bikes bouncing and may prevent a catastrophic accident. For me at least it would be a lot of extra peace of mind whilst driving, especially if you have the slightest doubt about the security of the rack. I keep well back from MH’s with bikes on the back now, since this thread started!
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Post by Caraman Fri Jun 21, 2024 8:36 am

I have had a look at what it says in the A-S manual for the earlier end wall models with the low lights and high rack which is what Cymro has and CC had.

"In order that a cycle rack and/or rear ladder can be fitted the rear panel bodywork is reinforced in certain areas.  Vertical and horizontal timbers have been bonded into the panel to take the fixings for these items."

No mention is made of weight limits but the Fiamma rack has a load limit of 60 kg so it's reasonable to assume that the weight limit on the fixings is 60 kg plus the weight of the rack (7.5 kg or 10 kg for the e-bike model).  So a cycle load (including covers, locks and marker board) of up to 60 kg can be carried, there being no need for a lighting board.  I wonder if the fixings have been bolted through as per the Fiamma installation manual in which case Cymro may have nothing to worry about.

The manual for my 2019 model which has the redesigned rear wall with higher lights and a low rack that is stuck on rather than bolted states:

"Your vehicle is fitted with the mounting points for a Fiamma Pro-C bike rack as standard.  For further details, please consult your dealer or our Service Department.  The maximum mass of the rack and cycles combined is 60 kg."

So the weight limit came down 7.5 kg (or 10 kg if the heavier e-bike rack was fitted).  When I bought my van in 2019, the dealer told me it was not suitable for e-bikes.  I don't know if he meant the rack or the fixings.  I assume he meant the fixings as an e-bike rack could easily have been fitted.  He didn't say a lighting board would be required which reduces the bike load by 2 kg.  

A-S have now reduced the weight limit by a further 10 kg and said that e-bikes should not be carried and nor should the heavier e-bike version of the rack be fitted.  So if we accept a lighting board is now a legal requirement, the maximum push bike only load including a lock, cover and rear marker board has come down from 60 kg to 40.5 kg.  If the lock, cover and rear marker board weigh 5 kg, the rack should be good for two 17.75 kg push bikes although my preference is for them to be lighter or only carry one which is what I am now doing.

I think the solution for those with the newer back wall who wish to carry two e-bikes is to fit a tow bar mounted rack which for the 3500 kg Broadways will probably require the rear axle to be up-plated.  (see [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.])  I'm not sure if the SWB 3500 kg Nuevo can be up-plated any more than it already has been.  

Picking up on Bargee's points, the Fiamma rack comes with a red ratchet strap to make the bikes more secure on the rack and stop them wobbling about.  If it is fitted vertically it will also help to reduce bounce.  I don't think there are any suitable fixing points for eye bolts.  My bike is quite tall which means I can just see the top of it through the rear mirror and the bottom of rear kitchen window which I have always found to be reassuring!  I don't think CC would have that reassurance with his End Bathroom model but maybe the reversing camera will give that.
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Post by John McHale Fri Jun 21, 2024 9:59 am

Caraman wrote:
I've just noticed this on the Auto-Sleeper website for all the coachbuilts:

The installation of the Fiamma Cycle Carrier Mounting Rails on the backs of Auto-Sleeper coachbuilt ranges has been specifically designed for the standard Fiamma Pro C range of cycle carriers and under no circumstances should any E-Bike carrier, Fiamma or otherwise be fitted to these rails nor shall Existing Fiamma Pro C carriers be upgraded by fitting the Fiamma Kit Upgrade E Bike.

It seems that Auto-Sleepers are saying if you want to carry e-bikes you need a tow bar mounted bike rack with all that that entails for the user payload and rear axle mass.
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Post by Cymro Fri Jun 21, 2024 10:04 am

Caraman wrote:.... I wonder if the fixings have been bolted through as per the Fiamma installation manual in which case Cymro may have nothing to worry about.
Cymro is relieved! here are 3 photos, one showing the exterior of the van, where you can see that the wind-up elevating rack is secured by four fixings. Each fixing seems to have a bolt either side of the vertical rail, going into the van. I assume that those bolts go through the reinforcing  wooden panels referred to by Caraman. The second shows where the top and bottom fixings come through into the bathroom, where they are covered by white Fiamma plastic covers; and the third shows what lies behind a cover: a metal plate with 2 small nuts. I expect that those nuts secure the bolts shown in the first photo. The centre hole in the plate is empty. I wonder what it was for?


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Post by Caraman Fri Jun 21, 2024 12:02 pm

Here is a photo of my rack (ignore the vertical pole on the offside which has nothing to do with it).  As you can see the fixing points are much closer together than Cymro's which my schoolboy mechanics tells me must increase their stress.  Also as we have heard they are only secured to the protruding fibreglass skin by adhesive.  There are glassed in wooden fillets in the back of the fibreglass to help spread the load but nothing like the bolts that go through the entire wall that Cymro has.  The photo also shows how the lights and number plate can be obscured.

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Post by John McHale Fri Jun 21, 2024 1:24 pm

The following appears under the technical section of the on line details of the Nuevo and other models:
The installation of the Fiamma Cycle Carrier Mounting Rails on the backs of Auto-Sleeper coachbuilt ranges has been specifically designed for the standard Fiamma Pro C range of cycle carriers and under no circumstances should any E-Bike carrier, Fiamma or otherwise be fitted to these rails nor shall Existing Fiamma Pro C carriers be upgraded by fitting the Fiamma Kit Upgrade E Bike.
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Post by Caraman Fri Jun 21, 2024 2:53 pm

John McHale wrote:The following appears under the technical section of the on line details of the Nuevo and other models:
The installation of the Fiamma Cycle Carrier Mounting Rails on the backs of Auto-Sleeper coachbuilt ranges has been specifically designed for the standard Fiamma Pro C range of cycle carriers and under no circumstances should any E-Bike carrier, Fiamma or otherwise be fitted to these rails nor shall Existing Fiamma Pro C carriers be upgraded by fitting the Fiamma Kit Upgrade E Bike.
That's right but it has only appeared very recently on their website perhaps because of problems they have had.  If someone had bought their Nuevo as I did in 2019 and hadn't kept up to date with what is said for the later models on the website and in later handbooks, perhaps through this Forum, they wouldn't know any of this or that the total weight limit including the rack, lighting board, cover, marker board, locks etc has gone down from 60 kg to 50 kg.
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Post by CC Fri Jun 21, 2024 3:56 pm

Wonder if the same fixings with the spreader plates on Cymro’s rack the same as what our last Broadway had can be added to our racks on the later models, if it were possible I’m guessing these fixing plates would be located in the unit beneath the wash basin & probably either side of the wash basin on an end bathroom model ?

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Post by Caraman Fri Jun 21, 2024 5:06 pm

CC wrote:Wonder if the same fixings with the spreader plates on Cymro’s rack the same as what our last Broadway had can be added to our racks on the later models, if it were possible I’m guessing these fixing plates would be located in the unit beneath the wash basin & probably either side of the wash basin on an end bathroom model ?
The problem is that there is a large void behind the fibreglass that our Fiamma fixings are stuck to.  You can see/feel the void if you get under the back of the van and look and feel upwards.  If you drum your hand on the fibreglass you can tell its hollow behind. The best that could probably be done is to fit bolts through the fibreglass but not through the wall as per your previous van and Cymro's.  However, if this was to be a retrofit, I would have thought the glue that is holding the fixings at the moment would have to be broken to put the bolts in and then it would have to be re-glued as belt and braces.  Preparation for gluing is all important so the old glue would all have to be removed.  From Paul's earlier post it looks as though racks have been refitted with bolts but I wonder if that was after the glue had already parted company.  I also don't know if this increases the load that the fixings can take.
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Post by CC Sat Jun 22, 2024 9:50 am

I never was a fan of the newer back end design, even less so now I’m finding all this out…
think_smiley_46

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Post by Caraman Sat Jun 22, 2024 10:04 am

CC wrote:I never was a fan of the newer back end design, even less so now I’m finding all this out…
think_smiley_46
A further thought.  I suspect the bolting through is a necessity when the glue has failed as it will have pulled the screws out of the wooden fillet which I think are there.  If so, new screws won't hold in the damaged wood so it has to be a bolt all the way through.
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Post by Paulmold Sat Jun 22, 2024 11:45 am

To add even more confusion to this matter, I've just seen this on FB group..... 

"Autosleepers bike rack problems.

Just received my bike rack fitting kit I ordered direct from Auto-Sleepers for my 2022 Nuevo. Very good service,  £11 posted.
Goodness knows how it fits a what the heavy steel guides are for."
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Post by CC Sat Jun 22, 2024 12:56 pm

They look like some kind of spreader Paul, maybe as there’s a void behind the GRP shell they just sit behind that, know GRP is pretty strong but not sure it would be enough, did the original poster sustain damage to the GRP if so it would be interesting to know to what degree ?

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Post by Paulmold Sat Jun 22, 2024 1:01 pm

The FB poster says his van is 2022 so if it had become detached I'd have thought it would have been fixed under warranty but he says he ordered and paid for it . If  AS are actually selling this kit then begs the question why not fit it originally.  If there's any further comment on FB I'll post it here.

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Post by Paulmold Sat Jun 22, 2024 1:56 pm

I asked the FB poster if the purpose of the kit was to improve the mounting if it was glued or whether he was simply fitting the rack himself.  His answer ......

"It's to improve the mounting  which is showing sings of coming adrift."

So again I ask 'why don't AS fit this at the build stage'?

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Post by John McHale Sat Jun 22, 2024 2:29 pm

Has anyone got an email address for AS? I was going to email them but can't find an address anywhere. The one on their FB page has bounced as unreachable.
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