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Help flat batteries

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Post by Plymouthwelshboy Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:01 pm

Cheers Marconi - thats really helpful. thanks
I'm more concerned about the central locking - that just doesnt seem right that you cant lock the doors if the battery is disconnected - but that passenger door just wont lock at all. the hab and drivers doors are done with the various keys. 

given the vehicle started first time when the battery was back in and given the volt meter showed the battery was Ok - I am completely baffled. Anyway, we will go back monday - check whats happening - switch down absolutely everything and try and isolate the vehicle battery with red button and then just hope and pray it will stay ok until lock down is lifted. out of interest do you have a jump pack of any sort for your motorhome? Mine is a boxer 2019 model 2.2.L turbo diesel engine 165bp.......i am assuming that you cannot really jump start it from a car without frying circuits - but can you use a starter battery pack thing from Halfords, for example? 

I'm feeling sooooo dim..... scratch head
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Post by marconi Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:06 pm

melcragg wrote:I am just about to put my van into storage for the first time following a house move. Removing the battery looks fiddly as its a Pug Boxer and it's under the pasenger footwell.

Have any of you used one of these new Lithium jump start batteries? I was thinking they are lighter and hold their charge for longer so I could keep in in the van just in case.

Thanks all
I haven't got a Jump Start pack but my neighbor has several, he is a Mechanic and works from home. You need a good quality pack that is suitable for Diesel Cranking and the Glow Plugs. They are getting cheaper these days.

Keeping one topped up at home for a van in storage sounds like a good idea.
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Post by Plymouthwelshboy Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:12 pm

thanks Marconi - need to go investigate and then break the news to the missus  rolleyes
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Post by Caraman Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:19 pm

Plymouthwelshboy wrote:Marconi - thanks - i read the harmony manual several times - where as a beginner I think I made the mistake was in wanting the LOCATE app facility - and the handbook is clear - the system needs to be active. I interpreted this as meaning the EC700 button has to be in. 
The manuals/handbooks that A-S/Sergent supply are poor.  No where does it say that the EC700 consumes at least 300mA when it's on and less than 1mA when its off, which mostly goes to the tracker, or that in the winter months the solar panel/regulator can't provide enough current to power the EC700 when its on and keep both batteries fully charged.  No where does it say that when the EC700 is off all the solar charge goes to the vehicle battery but only if the red isolation button on the ignition isn't used.  The Harmony manual implies that the alarm is powered by the leisure battery which it is on a caravan but not normally on a motorhome which has a vehicle alarm rather than a caravan alarm.


Last edited by Caraman on Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:26 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typo)
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Post by marconi Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:29 pm

Plymouthwelshboy wrote:Cheers Marconi - thats really helpful. thanks
I'm more concerned about the central locking - that just doesnt seem right that you cant lock the doors if the battery is disconnected - but that passenger door just wont lock at all. the hab and drivers doors are done with the various keys. 

given the vehicle started first time when the battery was back in and given the volt meter showed the battery was Ok - I am completely baffled. Anyway, we will go back monday - check whats happening - switch down absolutely everything and try and isolate the vehicle battery with red button and then just hope and pray it will stay ok until lock down is lifted. out of interest do you have a jump pack of any sort for your motorhome? Mine is a boxer 2019 model 2.2.L turbo diesel engine 165bp.......i am assuming that you cannot really jump start it from a car without frying circuits - but can you use a starter battery pack thing from Halfords, for example? 

I'm feeling sooooo dim..... scratch head

I do sympathies with the newbie state, its a lot to take in at first and the Sargent set up is overcomplicated. I bet we all have felt a right twerp at some time or other.

I spotted melcraggs comment and answered re a jumps starter, glyne should be able to advise on that. And on Jumping from a Car, something like a 4X4 works OK.

Probably what happened is that you got the Battery Alerts sent when the Voltages dropped low enough to trigger them. The EC700 actually shuts off if they go too low. The Voltages could recover with the bit of sun on the Solar Panel and temperature and non use if there was a shutdown. So the Alerts did  their job.

Did you not do anything other than remove and refit the Battery and it then started. If so it sounds like a poor Battery Terminal connection. Odd that.

Those Batteries do need a good charge though, running the engine when standing still is not the best thing but if you make sure the temperature gauge goes up to normal and run for a long time it will help a lot.
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Post by Plymouthwelshboy Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:41 pm

marconi wrote:
Plymouthwelshboy wrote:Cheers Marconi - thats really helpful. thanks
I'm more concerned about the central locking - that just doesnt seem right that you cant lock the doors if the battery is disconnected - but that passenger door just wont lock at all. the hab and drivers doors are done with the various keys. 

given the vehicle started first time when the battery was back in and given the volt meter showed the battery was Ok - I am completely baffled. Anyway, we will go back monday - check whats happening - switch down absolutely everything and try and isolate the vehicle battery with red button and then just hope and pray it will stay ok until lock down is lifted. out of interest do you have a jump pack of any sort for your motorhome? Mine is a boxer 2019 model 2.2.L turbo diesel engine 165bp.......i am assuming that you cannot really jump start it from a car without frying circuits - but can you use a starter battery pack thing from Halfords, for example? 

I'm feeling sooooo dim..... scratch head

I do sympathies with the newbie state, its a lot to take in at first and the Sargent set up is overcomplicated. I bet we all have felt a right twerp at some time or other.

I spotted melcraggs comment and answered re a jumps starter, glyne should be able to advise on that. And on Jumping from a Car, something like a 4X4 works OK.

Probably what happened is that you got the Battery Alerts sent when the Voltages dropped low enough to trigger them. The EC700 actually shuts off if they go too low. The Voltages could recover with the bit of sun on the Solar Panel and temperature and non use if there was a shutdown. So the Alerts did  their job.

Did you not do anything other than remove and refit the Battery and it then started. If so it sounds like a poor Battery Terminal connection. Odd that.

Those Batteries do need a good charge though, running the engine when standing still is not the best thing but if you make sure the temperature gauge goes up to normal and run for a long time it will help a lot.
honest marconi - first time - nothing when ignition key went in - nothing - no dash lights - not even a flicker. took battery out. put it straight back in after discovering had lost central locking - and lo and behold - the vehicle starts first time...... when you are a simple idiot like me - things like this are more than just baffling!! And as for the passenger door not locking.....dont get me started! 

everyone - thank you all for your help this afternoon and evening - really appreciated - all stay safe and well now in these strange times
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Post by glyne lock Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:46 pm

Plymouthwelshboy wrote:Cheers Marconi - thats really helpful. thanks
I'm more concerned about the central locking - that just doesnt seem right that you cant lock the doors if the battery is disconnected - but that passenger door just wont lock at all. the hab and drivers doors are done with the various keys. 

given the vehicle started first time when the battery was back in and given the volt meter showed the battery was Ok - I am completely baffled. Anyway, we will go back monday - check whats happening - switch down absolutely everything and try and isolate the vehicle battery with red button and then just hope and pray it will stay ok until lock down is lifted. out of interest do you have a jump pack of any sort for your motorhome? Mine is a boxer 2019 model 2.2.L turbo diesel engine 165bp.......i am assuming that you cannot really jump start it from a car without frying circuits - but can you use a starter battery pack thing from Halfords, for example? 

I'm feeling sooooo dim..... scratch head
yes you can start the van from a car but as I said you connect up the jump leads but run the car for 15 mins + with the side light on to make the alternator put out charge that will then charge up the van battery .you should not jump start a very low battery or you could damage the ecu from the surge of power when the vehicle starts. when we only have a vehicle 12 volt battery system and need to start a 24 volt truck you just put 15 mins  aprox in one battery then 15 mins in the other and start the truck .jump packs are ok if you are just low in power but not great when batteries are very flat
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Post by Plymouthwelshboy Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:51 pm

glyne - given as soon as I put the battery back in without charging it - the engine started first time - can I assume there is still reasonable charge in the battery? A volt meter I used said battery OK. 
and if this is the case - given all the limitations i face regarding not getting it on EHU or home or not taking battery out without losing central locking and passenger door issue - 

is there a jump starter pack of some form I could buy for such a situation again - I cant get car down there because owner wont open up storage site to allow cars on.  

The moho is a boxer 2.2l 160 bhp diesel turbo charge - 2017  t0 2019 model. the handbook says never use a jump starter battery pack on it - I'm reading the warning now - but lots of people on this forum says that is what they do - so I'm slightly confused

can you recommend such a starter jump pack at all? 
and thanks for all your advice this afternoon/evening - appreciated
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Post by glyne lock Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:20 pm

the reason as I said when you use a jump pack when you start the vehicle the surge may damage the ecu so is why they say this in the hand book. if  you do have to use a jump pack then by putting the light  on the van helps take the surge
as for new very small jump packs there are some on the market that say they will start a 2.5 engine and yes they are very small they fit in the glove box. ask if anybody has one on a new post as this may help myself I have a 12v or 24v pack for work but do carry jumps leads in my own van and never needed for myself but endid up helping others to many times 
I am thinking from what you have said you may have a cell shorting out it may have boiled dry or very low on water  .on some vehicles it will not turn the engine over with a very low voltage but would still light up the dash so is looking like the battery is shorting out inside and if you have a cell low on water will be you problem
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Post by Plymouthwelshboy Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:23 pm

if it is a cell problem - is that a new battery then or topping up a cell and if so - is that with ionised water - i have no idea - really feeling dim
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Post by glyne lock Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:54 pm

if you have a cell low first try just to top up with distilled water .this may not be your problem but there are not many reasons the dash would not have had any lights on when you tried to start it but then started when you put the battery back in as you say you did so is what I would be checking first
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Post by Caraman Sat Jan 30, 2021 8:25 am

The passenger door issue is not something I had thought too deeply about before.  Presumably if the vehicle is deadlocked and then the vehicle battery dies it will not be possible to open the passenger door from the inside or the outside and therefore to access the bonnet latch to open the bonnet to access the jump starting points recommended by Peugeot.  Access to the battery will also have to be via the driver's door rather than the more convenient passenger door.
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Post by bolero boy Sat Jan 30, 2021 8:56 am

marconi wrote:I spotted melcraggs comment and answered re a jumps starter, glyne should be able to advise on that. And on Jumping from a Car, something like a 4X4 works OK.
FWIW, I managed to start my SIL's Ducato Camper (flat as a pancake) from my shopper Fiat 500 (which does have the upgraded stop/start battery).

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Post by marconi Sat Jan 30, 2021 10:15 am

Caraman wrote:The passenger door issue is not something I had thought too deeply about before.  Presumably if the vehicle is deadlocked and then the vehicle battery dies it will not be possible to open the passenger door from the inside or the outside and therefore to access the bonnet latch to open the bonnet to access the jump starting points recommended by Peugeot.  Access to the battery will also have to be via the driver's door rather than the more convenient passenger door.

Hmm. Trickle charge via the OBD Socket for a while ? In a van of course, Motorhome, no problem connect EHU and charge the VB.
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Post by Caraman Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:22 am

If it is LH drive it isn't a problem as the driver's door accesses the bonnet latch and gives direct access to the vehicle battery.  Its all Napolean's fault!

I wonder of there is a technical reason for using the jump starting points under the bonnet rather than connecting directly to the battery as we all used to do?
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Post by bikeralw Sat Jan 30, 2021 1:34 pm

Plymouthwelshboy wrote:
can you recommend such a starter jump pack at all? 
and thanks for all your advice this afternoon/evening - appreciated

This is the power pack I've used for several years, very heavy duty, with inverter and compressor built in.
I've used it to start many cars, both diesel and petrol, but never had occasion to use it on my van.
However on the label it does state it will start diesel engines up to 2200cc, and I'm sure it will, it's a hefty piece of kit.
I bought mine off ebay, but I've seen them on Amazon etc.
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Post by marconi Sat Jan 30, 2021 1:47 pm

Caraman wrote:
I wonder of there is a technical reason for using the jump starting points under the bonnet rather than connecting directly to the battery as we all used to do?

Yes there is, in the 'used to do' days there was no delicate electronics and ECU's in the vehicles, clipping on leads, (even a Relay contact or a switch) will create an arc which can induce huge Voltage spikes into the wiring.

The Jump Start points have been designed with the resultant Current paths taken into consideration to minimise the risks to the vehicle electronics.
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Post by Caraman Sat Jan 30, 2021 2:06 pm

Yep - I have just been researching this.  The negative cable should not be connected directly to the discharged battery's negative terminal due to the risk of arcing igniting the hydrogen gas released by the battery.  My Hyundai manual also states "This can cause the discharged battery to overheat and crack, releasing battery acid".  The positive cable should not be connected directly to the positive terminal if the vehicle has an ECU as it risks damaging it.  So it would seem that the positioning of the bonnet release catch on the Boxer is a design fault for RH drive vehicles.  Not being able to unlock deadlocked passenger doors or lock them when the vehicle battery is dead or disconnected seems common to modern vehicles.  Both my cars only have manual key entry on the driver's door (and rear hatch).
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Post by Plymouthwelshboy Sat Jan 30, 2021 2:44 pm

An update
Have battery home. Down to 11.6v 20% . Now on ring smart charger which goes through seven stages from desulphation to soft start and then bulk charge etc. We will have to see what happens. Managed to extract it and still lock doors by exiting through habitation door 😱 thanks everyone. I suspect this is probably new battery...but we live in optimistic hope 🙄😄
Thank you everyone for your help. Appreciated
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Post by marconi Sat Jan 30, 2021 3:02 pm

Plymouthwelshboy wrote:An update
Have battery home. Down to 11.6v 20% . Now on ring smart charger which goes through seven stages from desulphation to soft start and then bulk charge etc. We will have to see what happens. Managed to extract it and still lock doors by exiting through habitation door 😱 thanks everyone. I suspect this is probably new battery...but we live in optimistic hope 🙄😄
Thank you everyone for your help. Appreciated

Always the optimist, I think you will be OK.

How tight were the bolts on the Battery Terminals when you first removed it. From the routing of the cables on my Vehicle Battery the skills were not great, did your fitter forget to tighten one. In which case low temperatures, damp, lack of use, a bit of oxidation set in. Nothing, you remove and refit and it's just a low battery.
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Post by Dbvwt Sat Jan 30, 2021 3:03 pm

I removed and brought home a friends battery from her car after it seemed beyond help after the first lockdown finished back in the summer

Like you, I used a very similar smart charger which failed and stopped charging (with error codes) within half an hour. Resetting the charger and starting again still failed but not quite so quickly.
This happened 3 times but eventually it completed all 7 stages and the battery has performed perfectly ever since.
It took over 24 hours to finally complete all 7 stages so patience is required smile!
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Post by Plymouthwelshboy Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:42 pm

this morning - battery is showing 100% and 12.7v. have taken it off charger and will keep it at home a couple of days to see what happens. If it is then holding charge will put back in Moho but with -ve disconnected. Then need to bring leisure battery hoe and charge that one as well. If that goes well - will put back in moho and then keep the EC700 switched off and vehicle battery disconnected. 
Hopefully that might get us through until end of lock down

Thank you everyone for al your help
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Post by Caraman Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:58 pm

Plymouthwelshboy wrote:this morning - battery is showing 100% and 12.7v. have taken it off charger and will keep it at home a couple of days to see what happens. If it is then holding charge will put back in Moho but with -ve disconnected. Then need to bring leisure battery hoe and charge that one as well. If that goes well - will put back in moho and then keep the EC700 switched off and vehicle battery disconnected. 
Hopefully that might get us through until end of lock down

Thank you everyone for al your help
When you remove the leisure battery remember to activate Inhibit Service Mode on AS Monitor.  If you don't you may get a phone call from the tracking centre at Bedford.  This assumes you have the paid tracking service.  If when you refit the vehicle battery you leave it disconnected you will not be able to lock the passenger door.  If instead you connect it but use the red isolation button on the ignition as per the Peugeot manual the central locking will continue working for 7 minutes so plenty of time to lock everything.  Either way you will be denying your vehicle battery any charge from the 80W panel which now the days are lengthening might be sufficient to keep the battery healthy until you next use the motorhome.
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Post by bolero boy Sun Jan 31, 2021 1:37 pm

" Either way you will be denying your vehicle battery any charge from the 80W panel which now the days are lengthening might be sufficient to keep the battery healthy until you next use the motorhome."
...and this is another reason why a 'ECXXX bypassed' solar system is an improvement. Surely, one should be able to remove drain on a battery by isolating it from most of the services yet provide it with a solar input.
I know I can use an isolation switch on my leisure batteries to remove all connected services drain, yet solar is still connected directly to the batteries.
It seems there is always a downside to trying to eke out solar power on these vehicles....every potentially mitigating action seems to be held back by some resulting downside?

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Post by marconi Sun Jan 31, 2021 2:56 pm

bolero boy wrote:" Either way you will be denying your vehicle battery any charge from the 80W panel which now the days are lengthening might be sufficient to keep the battery healthy until you next use the motorhome."
...and this is another reason why a 'ECXXX bypassed' solar system is an improvement. Surely, one should be able to remove drain on a battery by isolating it from most of the services yet provide it with a solar input.
I know I can use an isolation switch on my leisure batteries to remove all connected services drain, yet solar is still connected directly to the batteries.
It seems there is always a downside to trying to eke out solar power on these vehicles....every potentially mitigating action seems to be held back by some resulting downside?

Total lack of proper thought by the 'designers'.
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