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whalemaster system and whale external pump

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Post by Gromit on Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:28 am

Caraman wrote:(I'm not joining the watering can club yet!)
We offer reduced subscriptions for those poor unfortunate individuals who suffer from Chronic Whalemasteritis!

Can't offer much help with the withdrawal symptoms though, but we are working on a can design that you have to fiddle with for several minutes before it can be used!! That might help?  lol4

Getting me coat!  quick_run
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Post by FreelanderUK on Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:00 pm

You can fiddle with this can design ,just ordered one 😂😂

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Post by marconi on Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:07 pm

Caraman
Did you note in your experiments exactly what turns off the External Pump. There seems to be an anomaly here. Whale seem to say that the Pressure Switch activates the system and is de-activated when the tank is full. They must mean de energised, I have edited my diagram out until its confirmed.

Its probably the EC700 which cuts the supply when the float switch says full. I can add a note to the diagram when we know.


Last edited by marconi on Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by marconi on Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:21 pm

Gromitt wrote:
Caraman wrote:(I'm not joining the watering can club yet!)
We offer reduced subscriptions for those poor unfortunate individuals who suffer from Chronic Whalemasteritis!

Can't offer much help with the withdrawal symptoms though, but we are working on a can design that you have to fiddle with for several minutes before it can be used!! That might help?  lol4

Getting me coat!  quick_run

Cant you instigate a few rituals all members have to perform, a bit like the Masons maybe, to carry out before we get on with it and have a cup of tea.

The Colapz could provide a bit of fiddle time. I don't recommend their dual use idea though.

" PERFECT FOR CAMPERVANS - If you need to keep your camper, motorhome or caravan topped up with water the Watering Can attachment will allow you to easily direct the flow of water into those tight spaces. It you want to wash your cherished campa then use the supplied cap and convert to a bucket. Add this essential to your camping equipment ! "


Might as well use it for your Grey Water as well.


My Watering Can is sacred, perhaps that should be the first rule that we recite after rolling up our trouser legs. lol4
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Post by Caraman on Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:23 pm

marconi wrote:Did you note in your experiments exactly what turns off the External Pump. There seems to be an anomaly here. Whale seem to say that the Pressure Switch activates the system and is de-activated when the tank is full. They must mean de energised, I have edited my diagram out until its confirmed.

Its probably the EC700 which cuts the supply when the float switch says full. I can add a note to the diagram when we know.
Marconi - interesting point.  The autofill has three states - 'off', 'on/tank not full' and 'on/tank full'.  On our CP this is not apparent as the light is off  for both 'off' and 'on/tank full'.  On the latest CP (picked up from another thread) the light is on for both 'on/tank not full' and 'on/tank full' but they are different colours - green and blue I think.  The only autofill state where DC is live at the water inlet's brass connecters is 'on/tank not full' and if the pump is connected it will pump which should cause the pressure switch to activate the solenoid and open the valve.  Yesterday I didn't experiment filling the fresh water tank up fully because I know from experience when its full and the autofill is 'on/tank full' there is no DC at the water inlet and the pump doesn't run.  What I haven't experimented with is what happens if I remove the solenoid valve.  I think DC will still reach the inlet when the autofill state is 'on/tank not full'.  If it doesn't it would suggest the solenoid and pump are in series but I don't think they can be because if they are the solenoid would be live/energised whenever the brass contacts on the inlet are live which we know they are not.
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Post by Caraman on Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:52 pm

marconi wrote:
Gromitt wrote:
Caraman wrote:(I'm not joining the watering can club yet!)
We offer reduced subscriptions for those poor unfortunate individuals who suffer from Chronic Whalemasteritis!

Can't offer much help with the withdrawal symptoms though, but we are working on a can design that you have to fiddle with for several minutes before it can be used!! That might help?  lol4

Getting me coat!  quick_run
My Watering Can is sacred, perhaps that should be the first rule that we recite after rolling up our trouser legs. lol4
My watering can is also sacred - it sits by the water butt in our back garden!  I used it years ago to fill the on-board fresh water tank in our Knaus caravan.  If the Nuevo hadn't come with a Watermaster pump and inlet and I didn't already have a water roll, I might also be a member of the watering can club.  But whilst things are working its a water roll for me.   When the Watermaster pump gives up the ghost, which it will, I might sell the water roll on e-bay and use the proceeds to buy a watering can.  We'll see. confused3
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Post by inspiredron on Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:10 pm

mrconi wrote:

My Watering Can is sacred, perhaps that should be the first rule that we recite after rolling up our trouser legs. lol4
REALLY sorry to hear you have to roll up your trouser legs to fill up. Is that to avoid getting them wet from splashes as you aim?
Isn't it about time that we gave up all this sniping and just accept that for some of us the supplied equipment works totally satisfactorily and for others it doesn't?
Naturally, for those who have experienced issues, in some cases multiple issues, anything that is not 100% perfect is yet another irritation. But because something doesn't work well for you does not imply that anybody for whom it does work is an idiot to continue to trust it.

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Post by marconi on Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:16 pm

OK, I took no notice when I tried my supplied connector the once, I was pretty convinced when it stopped that it was no full but I didn't care, you could have convinced me that it has a half fill setting actually but I looked at the instructions today and there isn't.
I spotted those very necessary NEW FOR 2020 special features conceived by the mad relay users at Sargent for the salesmen to impress you with in another thread too. Yes it has to be the EC700 that does the control.


Last edited by marconi on Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by marconi on Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:25 pm

Insiredron



"REALLY sorry to hear you have to roll up your trouser legs to fill up. Is that to avoid getting them wet from splashes as you aim?"

Is that comment sniping or good honest humor


I am sure Gromit is not sniping neither am I. I see no harm in a little humor as well as investigating problems in fact I find it rather refreshing.

Lets try this for a diagram.

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Last edited by marconi on Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:17 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : smelling and tunctupation)
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Post by marconi on Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:07 pm

Caraman


"What I haven't experimented with is what happens if I remove the solenoid valve

I think DC will still reach the inlet when the autofill state is 'on/tank not full'."


Pretty sure you will be OK for 12 Volts there. The system is not that intelligent so it would detect a missing Solenoid or show "Solenoid not Activating". Makes sure you insulate the disconnected wires well.
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Post by inspiredron on Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:06 pm

I know nothing about the 500 or 700 series as I have the EC328. On that the control panel certainly triggers the 12V supply though I suspect the actual power comes from the charger rather than the control panel itself whose wiring harness does not handle more than very small currents.
The only way in which the EC328 "controls" filling is by supplying a live 12v to the float switch and a separate and unrelated and switched 12V to the external pump contacts on the Whale inlet. The latter IS controlled by either of 2 settings on the control panel - "external pump on" or "fill".  The fill setting (which I never use) supplies power for a fixed time (1 minute?) after which I think it needs to be re-triggered.
The area of concern seems to be the former one. The EC328 simply supplies power to the float switch, then to the pressure switch in the inlet socket (possibly via a relay but I cannot confirm or deny that) and to the solenoid valve - all connected in series (not the possible relay, of course). Thus, loss of pressure at the inlet or a full tank will cut power to the solenoid valve. 
The EC328 is designed to autofill from mains tap but not from an aquaroll since the external contacts are either constantly powered (Ext pump or both like on) or merely powered for a fixed short time. 
To allow autofill from an aquaroll demands a relay on the float switch to do two separate jobs - open power to the solenoid AND open power on the external pump contacts.
Does Marconi's diagram make provision for these two separate circuits to be broken?

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Post by marconi on Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:49 pm

inspiredron wrote:I know nothing about the 500 or 700 series as I have the EC328. On that the control panel certainly triggers the 12V supply though I suspect the actual power comes from the charger rather than the control panel itself whose wiring harness does not handle more than very small currents.
The only way in which the EC328 "controls" filling is by supplying a live 12v to the float switch and a separate and unrelated and switched 12V to the external pump contacts on the Whale inlet. The latter IS controlled by either of 2 settings on the control panel - "external pump on" or "fill".  The fill setting (which I never use) supplies power for a fixed time (1 minute?) after which I think it needs to be re-triggered.
The area of concern seems to be the former one. The EC328 simply supplies power to the float switch, then to the pressure switch in the inlet socket (possibly via a relay but I cannot confirm or deny that) and to the solenoid valve - all connected in series (not the possible relay, of course). Thus, loss of pressure at the inlet or a full tank will cut power to the solenoid valve. 
The EC328 is designed to autofill from mains tap but not from an aquaroll since the external contacts are either constantly powered (Ext pump or both like on) or merely powered for a fixed short time. 
To allow autofill from an aquaroll demands a relay on the float switch to do two separate jobs - open power to the solenoid AND open power on the external pump contacts.
Does Marconi's diagram make provision for these two separate circuits to be broken?
On this occasion, although I differentiate normally between the EC700 Controller and the Control Panel (CP), I was including the EC700 and CP and Display as one unit. As I wrote it on the diagram I thought will this cause trouble. smile! 

Interesting how the EC328 does it, I can't remember it being described.

Yes the diagram, which may be how its done does provide for control of both functions. As you know the EC328 has no where near enough relays. Whereas the EC500 has what was it, 15. I haven't found a picture of the EC700 board to count them and you can't see them on the actual unit without disassembly I am sure it has plenty.
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Post by inspiredron on Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:05 am

All my knowledge of the 328 is garnered from reading the manual and Peter Brown has posted Whale's diagram.  I have not fiddled with it and nor do I know that it doesn't have enough relays. It seems to have enough for my usage as it has given me no trouble in the 8 years I have had my van - quite unlike the issues reported by many EC700 owners. Nor does it drain the batteries as much as 500 and 700 series units. I guess I'm lucky, though I agree with Peter Brown that the EC328 seems to be the best of all the Sargent units. The only thing I would like to see is dual battery charging when on EHU without needing to add a Battery Master.
I found it difficult to fathom your circuit diagram - not enough connections in the Whale socket and I certainly didn't spot 2 relays or a two pole relay by the float switch - sorry 😭
My firm motto is 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' !

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Post by Caraman on Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:38 am

On the subject of relays, when the Autofill is switched on at the EC700 CP with no water connection at the inlet, a click can be heard from the vicinity of the solenoid.  Initially I thought it was the solenoid but it isn't as there is no current drain.  This is only detected (about 0.8A) when the mains water supply is connected which operates the pressure switch and makes the circuit for the solenoid.  The click is the relay which is somewhere in the EC700 rats nest which is right by the water inlet and solenoid.
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Post by bolero boy on Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:29 am

one thing that an 'auto' system might (would?) do that i wouldnt want, is to continue to top up the tank as i near the end of my holiday.
i have a pretty good idea how long a full tank lasts us, either with using the van shower (5+ days) or the site showers (10+ days). 
this may mean that, after the initial fill, we dont have to top up at all.
however, as we get closer to the end of the break, i will make a judgement call as to whether i need to continue to add a bit of water to the tank or will have 'enough' for the remaining time on site.
what would be the point of having a system that continues to brim the tank if you are about to leave the site for home? 
yes, if continuing to tour to another location, take your full tank of water with you... 
but do users of this system also make 'judgement calls' as whether they have 'enough' in the tank and turn off the autofill, or do they let it 'do its job', and continue to fill right to the end of the stay and then dump a full tank either on site or when they get home? 
im sure folk wouldnt be wasting water in todays 'green' environment, so i assume they wind the system down as the end of the break approaches?

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Post by Caraman on Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:15 am

bolero boy wrote:one thing that an 'auto' system might (would?) do that i wouldnt want, is to continue to top up the tank as i near the end of my holiday.
i have a pretty good idea how long a full tank lasts us, either with using the van shower (5+ days) or the site showers (10+ days). 
this may mean that, after the initial fill, we dont have to top up at all.
however, as we get closer to the end of the break, i will make a judgement call as to whether i need to continue to add a bit of water to the tank or will have 'enough' for the remaining time on site.
what would be the point of having a system that continues to brim the tank if you are about to leave the site for home? 
yes, if continuing to tour to another location, take your full tank of water with you... 
but do users of this system also make 'judgement calls' as whether they have 'enough' in the tank and turn off the autofill, or do they let it 'do its job', and continue to fill right to the end of the stay and then dump a full tank either on site or when they get home? 
im sure folk wouldnt be wasting water in todays 'green' environment, so i assume they wind the system down as the end of the break approaches?
Couldn't agree more bolero boy.  I have never used my autofill in the way you describe.  There is no need to keep the tank brimmed up all the time.  I roll out the hose to fill the tank when I need to and I let the level drop as we approach the end of a trip.  If I want to travel with a full tank, which I don't, I would top it up before I leave the pitch.  One the reasons I don't use the autofill in the way you describe is that I don't like leaving a hose pipe and it's connectors under mains water pressure and the blurb that comes with the Watermaster hose advises against leaving it in the sun.
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Post by marconi on Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:31 am

"the blurb that comes with the Watermaster hose advises against leaving it in the sun"


Oh dear, I hadn't read that one. So Whale has sold us a full Automatic Fill System, that may last a year, guaranteed for no longer, complete with the connecting hose that you can use as described but with a warning don't.

Edit

Just spotted insiredron's comment re the EC328 and relays. Exactly my point you have quite enough power consuming relays in the EC328, then came the clamor to introduce features in an old fashioned power consuming way disguised as high tech by a flash Control Panel, now for 2020 with extra coloured LED's.

Does my diagram not show, To Control Panel and From Control panel, that is where the Relay nest and microprocessor are, in there you can image any configurations you like, I don't know what happens in there and Sargent wont tell us.

I want to be in control of my van, I don't want some power hungry dinosaur doing it. If it used modern methods the power consumption could be reduced considerably.


Last edited by marconi on Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Caraman on Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:47 am

marconi wrote:"the blurb that comes with the Watermaster hose advises against leaving it in the sun"


Oh dear, I hadn't read that one. So Whale has sold us a full Automatic Fill System, that may last a year, guaranteed for no longer, complete with the connecting hose that you can use as described but with a warning don't.
The blurb says it doesn't use battery power but it does if connected through the solenoid valve which as far as I can see it has to be. 

On sunlight it says it must be kept in a clean dry storage area away from direct sunlight when not in use.  'In use' for me is filling the tank.  Once the tank is full its no longer 'in use' so it gets put away.  Others may read it differently.
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Post by inspiredron on Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:56 pm

Like Carman I use my fill and then put it away - job done no battery drain from filler.
I can't see where this discussion is leading except to "I don't like some of the aspects of the van that I paid s lot of money for" - which is tough, but the remedy is to accept them, modify them or take the loss of admitting you made a mistake and sell the van.
When we bought our Lancashire we spent 2 FULL DAYS at the NEC crawling over van's and eliminating most for one reason or another. In the end the Lancashire was the closest that we found to ticking most but not all the boxes
I didn't like the Whale filler but after spending 15 minutes talking to Whale was satisfied it was OK. At a later stage I discussed it with A/S and they offered to fit a hole as well, but not in place of the Whale (FOC). I declined and am happy with the Whale.
By the way, part of ticking the boxes was that my 2012 Lancashire had to have a Euro 5 engine but a 2011 body because the 2012 body had lost lots of storage which had been taken out with the 2012 facelift.  A/S did that for us.
All I can say is that we did our homework before parting with our £45k. We finished up with s van that has suited us as well as our first one, a Hymer.

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Post by Caraman on Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:17 pm

inspiredron wrote:
I can't see where this discussion is leading except to "I don't like some of the aspects of the van that I paid s lot of money for" - which is tough, but the remedy is to accept them, modify them or take the loss of admitting you made a mistake and sell the van.
For me inspiredron the discussion has improved my understanding of how the thing works, helped address a problem I and perhaps others have had with their external Watermaster pump and made me think again about my modus operandi.  I'm not quite ready to ditch the Watermaster pump but I am ready to ditch the Watermaster hose & connector in favour of a conventional hose through the lockable filler cap which the current models now all have,.  This will remove a point of failure and should speed up the fill.  I'm also close to ditching the solenoid valve in favour of a piece of pipe which should speed up the Watermaster pump fill as well removing a point of failure.  As you don't have a lockable filler cap and presumably don't want to fill the tank through its drain pipe, as some do, you must retain your Watermaster hose & connector.  However, if you are happy to lose your mains water shutoff capability when the tank is full, you could ditch your solenoid valve in favour of a piece of pipe which will remove a point of failure and should speed up the fill for both the Watermaster hose and Watermaster pump.  Having said all this, if you haven't had a failure and are are happy with your current fill speeds, leave it as it is.
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Post by inspiredron on Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:26 pm

Thanks for explaining your logic, Catalan, which makes perfect sense.  I have to agree that things have been made too complex and not all in the house of Sargent is put together in the most robust of ways. A totally different but prime example of that is what appears to be unnecessary electrolytic deposition of deposits on the fresh water level studs as a result of their permanent powering while the control panel is switched on, rather than purely when a measurement is required.
But returning to your suggestion - I intend to retain the solenoid since it does act as a suitable guard against contamination of my water supply. I may be tempted to destroy the filter, though, since I have a better and maintainable filter attached to my Shurflo water pump.
Thanks for your thoughtful and constructive approach.


Lyt

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Post by Caraman on Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:57 am

inspiredron wrote:I intend to retain the solenoid since it does act as a suitable guard against contamination of my water supply. I may be tempted to destroy the filter, though, since I have a better and maintainable filter attached to my Shurflo water pump.
Thanks for your thoughtful and constructive approach.


Lyt
When I had a look at the solenoid valve I noticed water trapped around the valve inlet and filter.  This might dry out in time but it might not.  I have experience of a similar filter arrangement that clearly didn't dry out and over the winter became contaminated with biological growth.  

If  the solenoid valve is removed altogether, I would have thought some sort of a small cap could be found or devised to slip over the end of the inlet pipe when not in use.
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Post by Brackjo on Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:36 pm

Dear All,

Is it possible to purchase the plastic whale plug as a separate item so you can attach your own hose?

Regards
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Post by Caraman on Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:01 pm

Brackjo wrote:Dear All,

Is it possible to purchase the plastic whale plug as a separate item so you can attach your own hose?

Regards
Brackjo
I haven't seen one.  I think the Watermaster pipe is bonded to the plug.  There is nothing to stop you connecting the Watermaster hose to another hose using a Hozelock double male connector and if you really wanted to, you could shorten the Watermaster hose.
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whalemaster system and whale external pump - Page 3 Empty Re:whalemaster system and whale external pump

Post by marconi on Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:41 pm

Caraman wrote:
Brackjo wrote:Dear All,

Is it possible to purchase the plastic whale plug as a separate item so you can attach your own hose?

Regards
Brackjo
I haven't seen one.  I think the Watermaster pipe is bonded to the plug.  There is nothing to stop you connecting the Watermaster hose to another hose using a Hozelock double male connector and if you really wanted to, you could shorten the Watermaster hose.

I seem to remember someone saying they tried to fit another hose to replace the original and the spigot just snapped off (broke).
marconi
marconi
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