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Post by Mids on Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:48 pm

Just filled my m/h with water turned pump  on at the control  panel ec700 can hear the pump but no water. Any ideas  sounds like an air  lick but how do I clear it.meant to be going away tomorrow ☹
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Post by Cymro on Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:55 pm

Don't know detailed fittings in your van, but 2 things come to mind: (1) when running water pump after first fill of water tank, on some models the water is first pumped into the hot water boiler; only after that is full will water then start to be pushed along pipes to taps. (2) Airlocks are common. There are thread about what to do. Here are some notes I've collected:
Inspiredron's method:
I fill the tank and then go into the van and 
[list="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"]
[*]turn on the bathroom tap to hot. I hear the pump running and after a minute or three it splutters and then runs normally.  It takes some time because the hot tank has to fill.
[*]Once that happens I turn the tap to cold and usually the cold comes pretty quickly but, again, with a splutter first.
[*]Then I go to the kitchen sink and do the same with a bit more splutter.  I suspect that with taps halfway it would take a bit longer but 8 minutes is rather too much IMHO.
[/list]


Actually I was not sure which I do first so I thought about it and concluded that hot first would avoid the pump pressurising the air in the hot tank while the cold was starting. The air in the cold side of the system is very much less, bing only that in the pipes.


Gromit's method:

I have always worked on the principle that by pressurising the system first with all the taps closed, when I open the hot tap it will blow out the air in the partly filled (and pressurised) hot tank a lot faster than waiting for the pump to expel it slowly as it operates normally. (Perhaps 8 minutes is not all that excessive if you don't pressurise the system first - but it still seems a long time to me. The entire process has never taken that long for me.)

I don't always stick to a routine of which tap to open first, but usually the cold one as it clears out the air fairly quickly and can therefore be dismissed as "job done". It then remains to purge the air from the hot tank, and if there are any problems I know there are no spurious effects from the cold system, since I have already cleared that part.


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Post by Mids on Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:59 pm

It's a Broadway eb  tried  those two method  no joy
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Post by Gromit on Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:27 pm

Drive round the block.

No, I'm not taking the Mick. As recommended by A/S service Centre, it's one of the methods of clearing an air lock in the submersible pump.

Give it a try before you panic Mr Mainwearing!  smile!
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Post by IMP on Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:34 pm

Try opening the boiler drain tap, while the basin/sink taps are open and the pump is turned on. This can sometime release the trapped air - if that is the problem.
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Post by Quilter on Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:44 pm

Sorry if this sounds a bit basic; we have once been caught this way. Did you leave the freshwater drain tap open when you last used the van ? If so all your water will have drained away and the tank will be empty.

( We once did this at a C&CC site. The water was all running downhill, away from the other side of the van as fast as we were filling, and so we, round the filler side, did not see it. We got a right old telling off from the Warden as he thought we were emptying grey water. )
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Post by Mids on Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:03 pm

Qilter definitely  have water
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Post by Cymro on Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:12 pm

Mids: going back to your original post, you say that you can hear he pump running. Given that, and that there's water in the tank, then there's something blocking the pipe to the outlets. That's nearly always an airlock - but there's a remote possibility that something heavy has crushed the pipework somewhere. My money is on the airlock, and as the 2 suggested methods have been unsuccessful, I'd endorse Gromit's suggestion and taking the van round some bends and speed humps, and then try it.  It's mighty odd, and I feel for you as you're planning to go away tomorrow. Good luck!

Cymro

PS it can take quite a time for the pump to fill the hot tank and then pump out the air - a good few minutes.


Last edited by Cymro on Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:31 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : PS added)
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Post by Flash on Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:39 pm

I have a 2019 Nuevo which I imagine has the same water arrangement as your van. Sometimes mine primes OK but at others won't whatever I try. My soloution is with the pump off, open 1 tap fully & then with a hammer type air pump set to deflate, pull a slight vacuum & immidiately start the pump up. Never fails. Not very happy about it & it's going to AS for it's first service soon & I've asked them to look at it. I would guess a wet vacuum would work just as well if not better.
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Post by Mids on Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:00 pm

Update still no water. Havnit taken it round the block yet.  But when  say  the pump is working its making  a humming noise.cant remember  what it should  sound like when water running .could it be a faulty pump now
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Post by Gromit on Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:49 pm

Doubt it, unless the impeller has come loose on the spindle.

Those pumps are notorious for causing problems when filling up. Almost always an air lock . . . which yours shouldn't suffer from.

I believe A/S have been buying in tanks for some time now with the pumps pre-installed at the correct angle and position. That's not to say you haven't got a Friday afternoon example of course.

If it ends up back at A/S, try to get them to replace it with a Shurflo. They will charge you I expect, but they should do it at a discount if your existing pump is useless.

With a Shurflo your problems are over. They just work!!!
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Post by rgermain on Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:21 pm

Gromit wrote:Doubt it, unless the impeller has come loose on the spindle.

Those pumps are notorious for causing problems when filling up. Almost always an air lock . . . which yours shouldn't suffer from.

I believe A/S have been buying in tanks for some time now with the pumps pre-installed at the correct angle and position. That's not to say you haven't got a Friday afternoon example of course.

If it ends up back at A/S, try to get them to replace it with a Shurflo. They will charge you I expect, but they should do it at a discount if your existing pump is useless.

With a Shurflo your problems are over. They just work!!!
Yes Dave, I took your advice and fitted the Shuflo pump I had sitting in the garage for a year and bingo, it has changed the way the water works in the van, no problems at all.
Very good advise, best thing I have added, should have done it earlier, had one in our T5 Topaz from new with no problems.

"They just work!!!"
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Post by Gromit on Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:31 pm

up! smile! smile!
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Post by bikeralw on Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:31 pm

I've never understood why AS ceased installing reliable Shurflo pumps as standard equipment, my 04 van has one, as do older vans. Does anyone know what year they changed to the vastly inferior submersible pump?
I can't believe it was for cost reasons, as they fit lots of expensive useless carp on more modern vans.
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Post by Caraman on Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:26 pm

Flash wrote:I have a 2019 Nuevo which I imagine has the same water arrangement as your van. Sometimes mine primes OK but at others won't whatever I try. My soloution is with the pump off, open 1 tap fully & then with a hammer type air pump set to deflate, pull a slight vacuum & immidiately start the pump up. Never fails. Not very happy about it & it's going to AS for it's first service soon & I've asked them to look at it. I would guess a wet vacuum would work just as well if not better.
A less elegant solution is to get your mouth around the open tap and give it a good suck with the pump running.  If the problem keeps recurring have done with it and fit a Shurlo.


Last edited by Caraman on Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:27 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typo)
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Post by Paramedic on Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:30 am

I'd go with Cymro it's an air lock problem. It's likely that when filling from empty, air can readily become trapped in the hot water tank. When filled, it's important to fully open hot tap first, either kitchen or washroom. Initially there is a lot of sputtering as the airlock is expelled thereafter water runs smoothly. This method has never failed us as learned from dealer during handover demonstration.

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Post by Mids on Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:49 am

Hi to everyone who gave me advice. Just arrived in the new forest  and the pump  is now working. Must have been a air lock cleared on the drive down😁
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Post by Gromit on Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:55 am

Mids wrote:Hi to everyone who gave me advice. Just arrived in the new forest  and the pump  is now working. Must have been a air lock cleared on the drive down😁
Good to hear that. I'm desperately trying not to say, "Told you so!" . . . . so I won't.  Whistle1  lol4

Thanks for the feedback to those who have helped. Not everyone bothers.  smile!

Enjoy your trip, but if you have a dog look out for ticks! They are rampant this year, apparently.
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Post by gassygassy on Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:27 pm

bikeralw wrote:I've never understood why AS ceased installing reliable Shurflo pumps as standard equipment, my 04 van has one, as do older vans. Does anyone know what year they changed to the vastly inferior submersible pump?
I can't believe it was for cost reasons, as they fit lots of expensive useless carp on more modern vans.
Al.

Cost. Same as they stopped fitting proper reversing cameras and decent sized solar panels.
I'm with gromit. The first thing I did with my Nuevo was to fit a Shurflo, it laughs at air locks and just pumps them out.
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Post by Caraman on Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:08 pm

gassygassy wrote:
bikeralw wrote:I've never understood why AS ceased installing reliable Shurflo pumps as standard equipment, my 04 van has one, as do older vans. Does anyone know what year they changed to the vastly inferior submersible pump?
I can't believe it was for cost reasons, as they fit lots of expensive useless carp on more modern vans.
Al.

Cost. ...
And yet the on-line price of a Whale submersible pump plus the Whale pressure switch and NRV is about the same as a Shurflo and its more costly if you include the labour charge of dropping the fresh water tank to replace the pump when it packs up.  If its any consolation, the AS Service Centre don't understand why they changed to the Whale system but they do good business replacing Whales with Shurflos.
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Post by Gromit on Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:26 pm

Plus (and probably most important of all) if your Shurflo should happen to pack in, you can get a replacement almost anywhere in Europe, you can get at it to replace it without dismantling the van, and all you need is a screwdriver and half an hour.
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Post by Quilter on Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:44 pm

Does anyone have a ball-park figure to have AS - say- change a Whale pump for a Shurflo ? I assume they leave the Whale in place but disconnected ?

As the Shurflo delivers water at a higher pressure than the Whale has anyone had any problems with fittings blowing off ?  We used to have one in our last van and had leaks from the Shurflo pump.
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Post by gassygassy on Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:02 pm

Plusplusplus when your Shurflo is 15 years old you can get a refurb kit for a few drinking vouchers, take it to bits, replace the rubber seals and flappy washers, and it's good as new.

By the way there is no need to drop the tank and remove the Whale submersible, just leave it in place, put the Shurflo in line with the output pipe from the Whale. The Whale doesn't offer any flow resistance, or at least not that you can measure without scientific equipment.

Then when you sell / trade in your m/h, simply remove the Shurflo, reconnect the Whale, check to see if it works and if it does, just leave it with the Whale and transfer the Shurflo to your new van. If your new one is German it probably has a Shurflo fitted anyway.
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Post by Gromit on Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:27 pm

Quilter wrote:Does anyone have a ball-park figure to have AS - say- change a Whale pump for a Shurflo ? I assume they leave the Whale in place but disconnected ?

As the Shurflo delivers water at a higher pressure than the Whale has anyone had any problems with fittings blowing off ?  We used to have one in our last van and had leaks from the Shurflo pump.
About £200 I think. Mine was a bit less as it was only the second one they had done, and were still working out the best way to do it.

Alternatively . . . . . 

To anyone wanting to change the pump in the cold water tank for a pump inside here are details of the completed job together with an idiot's guide. 
This was done on a 2011 Nuevo II EK
but may well apply to other models.

1. First job is to drain the freshwater tank and hot water tank then raise the van so I used a pair of Milenco Quattro ramps on the front wheels. This gives reasonable access underneath.

2. Make sure the 12V power is off on your control panel and then get underneath the freshwater tank with your legs facing the back of the van. This makes it easier to see and at the front of the tank coming from the top you will see a white cable which is from the pump in the tank. This white cable is connected to a pair of single cables encased in black insulation. Where they are joined with male and female spade connectors carefully remove the black insulation then you can simply disconnect the pump.
The wires to the pump I just taped these out the way as they are no longer required. Cut the terminals from the wires going towards the rear of the van. Carefully pull the cable back through the cable ties and plastic trunking until you can see it disappear up into the floor at the bottom of the wardrobe.

3. You are now finished underneath. Back inside the van remove the drawer under the wardrobe. Some may just tilt and pull out but on mine you have to remove 3 screws on each side of the drawer and it will come out. Remove the inspection cover inside the wardrobe.
Now if you look at the bottom of the wardrobe floor you will see a jumble of wires going through the floor. There are a few black covered sets of cables but I found that by tugging each set you soon find the pump cable which is loose under the van and pull it all through.

4. Now in my van the positive cable is coloured orange/white and the negative is coloured blue/green but to be safe test it with a 12V bulb tester.
You could if you wish try to find the cables without going underneath but it is not easy as there are so many wires.

5. Unscrew the existing pressure switch on the right wardrobe inside wall by unscrewing the 2 screws underneath and then by holding the inside collar on the connectors pull up from the rigid pipe. You can keep the connectors as spares.

6. I screwed the Shurflo pump to the rear wall of the wardrobe as shown in the photo in the upright position. Left side where the filter is is the input from the water tank and the right side is the output to the taps. Use 4 1 1/4 X 8 pozi pan head stainless steel screws.

7. Next you need some 1/2 inch ID water quality high pressure flexible tubing.
Fortunately I had an old filling pipe from my previous van. It is nylon enforced. You also need 6 stainless steel Jubilee clips 11-16mm, 1/2in-5/8in. Connect the pump input to the rigid pipe that goes straight through the wardrobe floor and connect the pump output to the other rigid pipe which goes to a T connector on the wardrobe floor.

8. Next connect together the 2 blue/green wires which went to the pressure switch. I cut off the existing connectors and used a crimp connector to join them together. Now connect the red positive lead from the new pump to the orange/ white lead from the old pump and connect the black negative wire from the new pump to the blue/green wire from the old pump.

9. Now you can switch the 12V power and pump on briefly just to make sure it is working. The pump can run dry without damage so don't worry.

10. Lastly put some water in your tank-I filled it 50% and then you can switch the pump on and fill in the usual way. It fills a lot quicker with much stronger pressure and shuts off very quickly when the tap is closed. If the pump runs after switching on briefly open and close a tap and it should stop.

11. Forgot to mention that the old submersible pump in the tank remains in place. As it is no longer powered the Shurflo pump is powerful enough to draw the water through the impeller of the old pump. It also makes sure the pickup pipe remains at the bottom of the tank.

 
This came from MoggyMinor, but I think there's an easier way to connect the electrics without going to the trouble of grovelling under the van. See the bit in red under Step 4.

Someone has posted a guide to finding the correct wires, but I can't remember who - and I'm thick when it comes to electrics so I'm no use!! If I recall the job was much easier than Moggy's original advice above, since several people had done the job and gained from their collective experience.

Hope this is useful. (No problems with higher pressure, and the shower works a lot better.)

Dave
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Post by Quilter on Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:33 pm

Dave, thank you very much. Very helpful.
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