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2009 Nuevo Classic - Tyre Pressures

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Post by marconi on Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:53 pm

FreelanderUK wrote:Is this any good for the CEO Details

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Hmm, same name could be worth a try. When I last emailed the CEO, I can't remember the name, the email bounced. When I asked for his email recently I was told I couldn't have it.
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Post by mikethebike on Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:04 pm

Hu Marconi. Best as you have done to write if you have a complaint. I hope you have kept a copy and sent that letter recorded delivery. up!

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Post by Caraman on Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:42 am

FreelanderUK wrote:Is this any good for the CEO Details

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I tried to copy in the CEO to an e-mail using the e-mail address in this link and it bounced.  It looks as though he got fed up receiving e-mails from the public and his customers so changed his address and gave instructions to his employees not to release it.
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Post by Caraman on Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:44 am

FreelanderUK wrote:Is this any good for the CEO Details

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I tried to copy in the CEO to an e-mail using the e-mail address in this link and it bounced.  It looks as though he got fed up receiving e-mails from the public and his customers so changed his address and gave instructions to his employees not to release it.
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Post by marconi on Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:48 am

mikethebike wrote:Hu Marconi. Best as you have done to write if you have a complaint. I hope you have kept a copy and sent that letter recorded delivery. up!

Micky

The email bouncing doesn't surprise me. The whole set up is extraordinarily un business like.

Anyone who does write needs to demand a reply from the CEO himself. One of my letters to him was passed down to the Warranty Parts Manager to deal with, it was not a Warranty Parts issue and his reply was nothing but rude.

I did get a reply from Mr G Scott. He clearly doesn't understand the issue and is not interested.

Don't let that prevent anyone else involved lodging a complaint, the more we have against them the better the chance of bringing a solution to this Safety Critical problem.
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Post by Molly3 on Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:29 pm

i use the stated pressure ,no mention  of  weighing  the van in autosleeper  hand book  or documentation   ,max  .weights  clearly displayed  next to  tyre  pressures  a motorhome caries  a .lot of weight  high  up  with rolling and side winds the side to side weight can vary  considerably  making weighing the  vehicle  unreliable , manufacturers  take  this into account  when calculating  tyre pressures
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Post by Caraman on Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:04 am

Molly3 wrote:i use the stated pressure ,no mention  of  weighing  the van in autosleeper  hand book  or documentation   ,max  .weights  clearly displayed  next to  tyre  pressures  a motorhome caries  a .lot of weight  high  up  with rolling and side winds the side to side weight can vary  considerably  making weighing the  vehicle  unreliable , manufacturers  take  this into account  when calculating  tyre pressures
Between buying my Nuevo last year, which was my first motorhome, and Feb/Mar this year, I would have agreed with you and only ever sought to inflate my tyres to the pressures shown on the tyre pressure label.  However, having now conducted a deep dive into the matter and consulted many people, it is very clear that the front CP tyre pressure of 5.0 bar for the fully loaded unconverted vehicle is not the pressure I should be using for my fully loaded Nuevo.  The correct pressure is the one recommended for my front axle mass by the tyre manufacturer.  For my Nuevo this is between 3.0 bar and 3.2 bar, the latter being the pressure for the maximum mass my front axle can be (1500 kg) without the rear axle and vehicle MTPLMs being exceeded.  AS has agreed this even though it is not stated in their handbook.
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Post by bolero boy on Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:41 am

Molly, i can say i agree with 'making weighing the vehicle unreliable'....i do agree all vehicles transfer weight from front to back under acceleration and back to front under braking, along with side to side changes under cornering, and tyre manufacturers do take this into consideration.....
however they do it while also understanding that different vans run at different axle weights and there cant be a one size fits all 'best' tyre pressure for each wheel/tyre size.
the starting point (actual axle weights) must have a bearing on the subsequent loads that tyre has to bear....eg an unladen Nuevo must be different than a fully laden Broadway.... 
even though they run on the same tyres, the loading will be different which is why a 'blanket' abitrary number (79psi) will be too high in most (all) cases....especially on the front axle.
However, back to your van.....what was your assessment of the pressures you used and what were the stated pressures?
....did you find them a bit high, a bit soft or just right? better at the front, better at the rear, hard all round, soft all round?
the thing is, with a 3500kg plated van that has max axle weights of 1850kg(f) and 2000kg(r) it is impossible (legally) to be running with both axles at that maximum load at the same time (unless upgraded to 3850kg) so the 'stated pressures' (79psi all round?) which cover the maximum loadings per axle are bound to be well on the high side.
as Caraman has pointed out many times, if a rear weight biased van like the the Nuevo/Broadway is running close to the rear limit of 2000kg, then the front axle 'must' (legally) be 1500kg or less....setting this to to 79psi would be 'interesting' in my view, to say the least...
with a van weight biased as above and the pressures set to 79psi all round the ride would rock hard and crashy on any road imperfection (thats everywhere in the UK), steering would be incredibly light and vague, front wheel wet grip dubious, pulling out from junctions 'fun' and site traction reduced.
as ive said before, i dont have a 'pressure sticker' on my van (not part of NCC 'scheme') so i don't feel obliged to adhere to anything other than my tyre manufacturers' advice, based on the axle weight info i sent to them.

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Post by rgermain on Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:49 am

bolero boy wrote:Molly, i can say i agree with 'making weighing the vehicle unreliable'....i do agree all vehicles transfer weight from front to back under acceleration and back to front under braking, along with side to side changes under cornering, and tyre manufacturers do take this into consideration.....
however they do it while also understanding that different vans run at different axle weights and there cant be a one size fits all 'best' tyre pressure for each wheel/tyre size.
the starting point (actual axle weights) must have a bearing on the subsequent loads that tyre has to bear....eg an unladen Nuevo must be different than a fully laden Broadway.... 
even though they run on the same tyres, the loading will be different which is why a 'blanket' abitrary number (79psi) will be too high in most (all) cases....especially on the front axle.
However, back to your van.....what was your assessment of the pressures you used and what were the stated pressures?
....did you find them a bit high, a bit soft or just right? better at the front, better at the rear, hard all round, soft all round?
the thing is, with a 3500kg plated van that has max axle weights of 1850kg(f) and 2000kg(r) it is impossible (legally) to be running with both axles at that maximum load at the same time (unless upgraded to 3850kg) so the 'stated pressures' (79psi all round?) which cover the maximum loadings per axle are bound to be well on the high side.
as Caraman has pointed out many times, if a rear weight biased van like the the Nuevo/Broadway is running close to the rear limit of 2000kg, then the front axle 'must' (legally) be 1500kg or less....setting this to to 79psi would be 'interesting' in my view, to say the least...
with a van weight biased as above and the pressures set to 79psi all round the ride would rock hard and crashy on any road imperfection (thats everywhere in the UK), steering would be incredibly light and vague, front wheel wet grip dubious, pulling out from junctions 'fun' and site traction reduced.
as ive said before, i dont have a 'pressure sticker' on my van (not part of NCC 'scheme') so i don't feel obliged to adhere to anything other than my tyre manufacturers' advice, based on the axle weight info i sent to them.
Thank you for talking psi, bar only means one thing to an old boy like me. hugegrins

I wish if others state bar could they also include psi
Thank you
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Post by HairyFool on Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:48 am

The plated pressure is by definition a compromise. It allows for variations in loads (some cars have different pressures plated if fully laden).

The tyre will spend the vast majority of its time travelling with minimal variation in loads due to bumps, turns, braking and acceleration all of which should be allowed for by the tyre design which is one of the reasons I will not use cheap Chinese tyres. They don't design, they just copy what is already out there.
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Post by Caraman on Mon Aug 31, 2020 5:55 pm

HairyFool wrote:The plated pressure is by definition a compromise. It allows for variations in loads (some cars have different pressures plated if fully laden).
The plated pressure on our motorhomes (less the Corinium which is on an Al-Ko chassis) is for the maximum load of the unconverted base vehicle.  According to Continental and the ETRTO this should be 4.15 bar for a front axle MTPLM of 1850 kg for the 215/70 R15 CP tyre.  The plated figure of 5.0 bar is even 0.25 bar higher than Continental and the ETRTO recommend for the front tyre's maximum permitted load of 1030 kg (which equates to a front axle mass of 2060 kg.)  The plated front tyre pressure of 5.0 bar is no compromise!

It is easier on a car because two pressure figures are given - low load and high load - therefore the pressure set is between these two figures.

I have used bar throughout as they are the ETRTO's definitive figures.  psi are a conversion from bar.  For example, 5.5 bar is sometimes shown as 79 psi and sometimes as 80 psi.  In fact its 79.7707558..... psi.
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Post by Peter Brown on Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:24 pm

Below are from the Sprinter handbook. You will note that MB are very specific on the pressures that should be used for camper conversions.

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Post by Caraman on Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:27 pm

Thanks Peter.  That's actually quite interesting.  I note the M-B recommendation that camper vans should only use the upper fully loaded tyre pressures.  I was referring above to the current Peugeot Boxer and not the M-B.  The M-B tyre sizes shown are different to Peugeot's and are C rather than CP.  It would be interesting to see the front tyre pressure figures for the current 3500 kg range of M-Bs with CP tyres and to know their size and brand.  I guess their front axle will have a higher mass than the equivalent Peugeot conversion so a direct comparison may not be possible.  Its interesting that when Al-Ko fit a new back end to the Boxer they reduce the fully loaded front CP tyre pressures from Peugeot's 5.0 (73 psi) bar to 3.45 bar (50 psi) or 3.72 bar (54 psi).  I would be interested to know if any Corinium owner can confirm this.  I got the figures from Bailey who only use the Al-Ko chassis.
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Post by bolero boy on Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:07 pm

i was wondering why you mentioned the Al-Ko chassis 'variation'..
i havent a clue as to why this should make an happeth of difference..
a load on a tyre (static, due to weight) is the same whatever chassis is fitted, isnt it?
when i emailed Continental, they didnt say....hang on a bit, what chassis are you running on, they just gave me the numbers.

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Post by HairyFool on Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:36 pm

If you are unsure you can always calculate what should be the pressure.

The marking on the side includes the max pressure and load. Divide the axle weight by 2 to get the actual tyre load then divide that with the max load to get a result slightly under 1. Multiply that by the max pressure and the result is the running pressure for that load.

This would result in the tyre having the same deflection as it would have at the max values but may not give optimum wear, not an issue for most motor homes but if you do do high mileage keep a check on the wear patterns.
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Post by Caraman on Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:10 pm

bolero boy wrote:i was wondering why you mentioned the Al-Ko chassis 'variation'..
i havent a clue as to why this should make an happeth of difference..
a load on a tyre (static, due to weight) is the same whatever chassis is fitted, isnt it?
when i emailed Continental, they didnt say....hang on a bit, what chassis are you running on, they just gave me the numbers.
I am no expert on this but vehicles have to go through a type approval process broken down by stages.  For the vehicle manufacturer (Peugeot) its Stage 1, for Al-Ko (the A-S Corinium) its Stage 2 and then its Stage 3 for the motorhome converter (A-S).  If the motorhome is built on the vehicle manufacturer's chassis (like the Nuevo and Broadway) the process stops at Stage 2 which is done by the motorhome converter.  When Al-Ko gets its Stage 2 approval it has to test the whole vehicle as if its a new vehicle because everything behind the cab is new.  As part of this testing it reduces the front tyre pressures and fits a new Stage 2 tyre pressure label (which Peugeot use to adjust the front TPMS).  If the motorhome is not on an Al-Ko chassis the only person who can fit a new tyre pressure label is the motorhome converter but A-S don't do this because they don't want to test the vehicle and so they leave the Stage 1 tyre pressure label in place.  Hence we have A-S producing motorhomes with near identical front ends with plated front pressures of 3.45 bar (tbc) for the Corinium and 5.0 bar for the rest.


Last edited by Caraman on Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:12 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typo)
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Post by Molly3 on Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:17 am

The  MB  chart states  for  camper vans  conversions ,  no mention  of  coach built  motorhomes  fitted with  camping tyres  ,
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Post by bolero boy on Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:03 am

Caraman wrote:
bolero boy wrote:i was wondering why you mentioned the Al-Ko chassis 'variation'..
i havent a clue as to why this should make an happeth of difference..
a load on a tyre (static, due to weight) is the same whatever chassis is fitted, isnt it?
when i emailed Continental, they didnt say....hang on a bit, what chassis are you running on, they just gave me the numbers.
I am no expert on this but vehicles have to go through a type approval process broken down by stages.  For the vehicle manufacturer (Peugeot) its Stage 1, for Al-Ko (the A-S Corinium) its Stage 2 and then its Stage 3 for the motorhome converter (A-S).  If the motorhome is built on the vehicle manufacturer's chassis (like the Nuevo and Broadway) the process stops at Stage 2 which is done by the motorhome converter.  When Al-Ko gets its Stage 2 approval it has to test the whole vehicle as if its a new vehicle because everything behind the cab is new.  As part of this testing it reduces the front tyre pressures and fits a new Stage 2 tyre pressure label (which Peugeot use to adjust the front TPMS).  If the motorhome is not on an Al-Ko chassis the only person who can fit a new tyre pressure label is the motorhome converter but A-S don't do this because they don't want to test the vehicle and so they leave the Stage 1 tyre pressure label in place.  Hence we have A-S producing motorhomes with near identical front ends with plated front pressures of 3.45 bar (tbc) for the Corinium and 5.0 bar for the rest.
C, that does make sense. My own van has the various 'stickers' for weight as the vehicle moves from Fiat, to Al-Ko and then to Carthago but there are no tyre stickers...this may be to do with the converter not being NCC affiliated...ive not found any in the handbook either, as its quite a generic (although comprehensive) one covering identical systems across model ranges/variants.
i havent done so yet, but i will get round to calling Continental to see what their latest position is.
youve done terrific work and i can see why this has become a frustrating process for you.

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Post by Cymro on Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:16 am

bolero boy wrote:
[About Caraman:] "... you've done terrific work and I can see why this has become a frustrating process for you."

Hear, Hear.

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Post by Peter Brown on Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:22 pm

Molly3 wrote:The  MB  chart states  for  camper vans  conversions ,  no mention  of  coach built  motorhomes  fitted with  camping tyres  ,

The German word is Wohnmobile the literal translation to English is mobile home.  If you translate either camper van or motorhome to German you are given Wohnmobile.

The handbook shown is for the Mercedes Chassis cab used for coachbuilt conversions, not for a Sprinter panel van.
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Post by bolero boy on Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:39 pm

Peter Brown wrote:
Molly3 wrote:The  MB  chart states  for  camper vans  conversions ,  no mention  of  coach built  motorhomes  fitted with  camping tyres  ,

The German word is Wohnmobile the literal translation to English is mobile home.  If you translate either camper van or motorhome to German you are given Wohnmobile.

The handbook shown is for the Mercedes Chassis cab used for coachbuilt conversions, not for a Sprinter panel van.
according to google translate, 'wohnmobil' is a camper.
we drive a 'reisemobil'.....a motorhome.biggrin

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Post by Peter Brown on Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:47 pm

My google translate disagrees with your google translate. That doesn't alter the fact that the information is for a chassis cab converted to a coach built and not a panel van.

The point is that not all chassis manufacturers shirk from advising tyre pressures for conversions, and irrespective I've still gone my own way in determining the pressures that I use but that is personal to me.
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Post by bolero boy on Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:01 pm

i asked it to translate 'wohnmobil' and got camper....you translated camper and got Wohnmobil...seems right to me.
however, if you translate reisemobil, which is what our German company (and others) says it manufactures, you, not surprisingly, get Motorhome.

So,
reisemobil der exzellenz = motorhome of excellence up!

...but, as you say, it matters not...

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Post by Caraman on Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:47 pm

Caraman wrote:
bolero boy wrote:i was wondering why you mentioned the Al-Ko chassis 'variation'..
i havent a clue as to why this should make an happeth of difference..
a load on a tyre (static, due to weight) is the same whatever chassis is fitted, isnt it?
when i emailed Continental, they didnt say....hang on a bit, what chassis are you running on, they just gave me the numbers.
I am no expert on this but vehicles have to go through a type approval process broken down by stages.  For the vehicle manufacturer (Peugeot) its Stage 1, for Al-Ko (the A-S Corinium) its Stage 2 and then its Stage 3 for the motorhome converter (A-S).  If the motorhome is built on the vehicle manufacturer's chassis (like the Nuevo and Broadway) the process stops at Stage 2 which is done by the motorhome converter.  When Al-Ko gets its Stage 2 approval it has to test the whole vehicle as if its a new vehicle because everything behind the cab is new.  As part of this testing it reduces the front tyre pressures and fits a new Stage 2 tyre pressure label (which Peugeot use to adjust the front TPMS).  If the motorhome is not on an Al-Ko chassis the only person who can fit a new tyre pressure label is the motorhome converter but A-S don't do this because they don't want to test the vehicle and so they leave the Stage 1 tyre pressure label in place.  Hence we have A-S producing motorhomes with near identical front ends with plated front pressures of 3.45 bar (tbc) for the Corinium and 5.0 bar for the rest.
I need to correct what I wrote above.  I was led to believe by Auto-Sleepers that Al-Ko change the tyre pressure label.  Al-Ko has told me they don't do this perhaps because the vehicle is still unconverted.  Only the converter can change the tyre pressure label as part of the motorhome' final stage of type approval.  The only UK converter I am aware of who does this is Bailey who after testing the converted vehicle reduce the plated front CP tyre pressure from 5.0 bar to 50 psi (3.4 bar) or 54 psi if its a 6 berth/passenger model.  Peugeot then adjust the TPMS to the new front tyre pressure.
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