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2009 Nuevo Classic - Tyre Pressures

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Post by mikethebike on Tue May 19, 2020 11:02 am

Sorry we are going round in circles.
i never said continental was only for rear wheel use. It said it covered front and rear.
I surmised that Tyresafe was for rear wheel use as it did not mention front or rear.

IMHO i dont think it is playing safe by having a much higher pressure than is required.

However its up to you.

These tyrepressure threads having been coming up ever since i came on in 2012.
I expect it will go on for another 8 years.
I will leave it with you.

Micky
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Post by Caraman on Tue May 19, 2020 11:11 am

mikethebike wrote:Sorry we are going round in circles.
i never said continental was only for rear wheel use. It said it covered front and rear.
I surmised that Tyresafe was for rear wheel use as it did not mention front or rear.

IMHO i dont think it is playing safe by having a much higher pressure than is required.

However its up to you.

These tyrepressure threads having been coming up ever since i came on in 2012.
I expect it will go on for another 8 years.
I will leave it with you.

Micky
To avoid any further confusion, I have asked TyreSafe if their figures are only for RWD.  I think the answer will be no because their figures correlate with the figures that Continental gave me for my FWD Nuevo.  The reason TyreSafe's figures are slightly higher than Continental's is explained in my earlier post and on TyreSafe's website which gives more information on motorhome tyres.  In all cases the CP rear tyres are set at 80 psi 5.5 bar.
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Post by Paulmold on Tue May 19, 2020 11:50 am

I've also emailed Michelin for clarification on the fwd/rwd use.

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Post by Cymro on Tue May 19, 2020 12:14 pm

mikethebike wrote:Sorry we are going round in circles.
That's what tyres do! ... sorry about that...

Thanks to Caraman's persistence, I think that at last we've established that there is broad agreement between tyre manufacturers, ETRTO, vehicle manufacturers and Tyresafe (subject to Caraman's check with Tyresafe about FWD / RWD):

For CP tyres [215/70R15 CP 109-R] and
For FWD and RWD vehicles,
rear tyres should, irrespective of axle weight, always be 80psi (5.5 bar) and front tyres should be set according to axle weight (notwithstanding that this could result in a difference of up to 30psi between fronts and rears, and notwithstanding that lower fronts can (at least with Peugeot) trigger the TPMS alarm.

I shall continue to run my Luton-topped 4 berth NuevoES at 53/ 75 normally, although when the bicycles are on the rear rack I might push the rear CP tyres up to nearer 80psi.

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Post by Paulmold on Tue May 19, 2020 12:44 pm

Just had a response from Michelin , totally ignoring the question of whether data applies to fwd and/or rwd vehicles......

ar Paul,
 
Thank you for contacting Michelin customer care.
 
Regarding your query, the recommended tyre pressure for the rear (single) axle of a motorhome running on the MICHELIN Agilis Camping is 80 PSI (5,5bar) and for twin axle 69PSI (4,75bar)
 
This is due to the construction of the tyre with 2 casing plies enabling the use of higher pressures. Its construction and the use of higher pressures is designed to cope with continual heavy loads sometimes found on motorhomes and can help with wear pattern issues, if lower pressures are used particularly on the rear axle.
 
The front tyres however can be adjusted down to a pressure of 65 PSI for a more comfortable ride and optimum performance.
 
Here are some safety points to be taken into account when it comes to tyre pressures:
 
1. Always check the pressures when the vehicle tyres are cold. We consider the tyres as being cold if they haven’t been used for at least 2 hours of it they have rolled less than 3 miles at low speed. If the tyres are not under these conditions they are considered to be hot.
2. When the tyres are hot you should always add 4,4 PSI to the recommended  pressure.
3. Please remember - Never deflate a hot tyre!
 
I hope this information was helpful and please do not hesitate to contact us again if you have any further questions. We are happy to help.
 
 
Kind regards,
Elli
MICHELIN Customer Care

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Post by Caraman on Tue May 19, 2020 1:34 pm

I also contacted Michelin (as well as Pirelli and Continental who gave incorrect advice earlier in the year about the rear pressures).  This is what they said:

Regarding your query about tyre pressures for your motor home.
 
I have now received an answer regarding your query from our technical department.
 
First of all I want to clarify that  we can only advise about Michelin Group products, so it would be inappropriate of us to talk about Continental tyres and the advice that they have previously supplied.  
 

  • ETRTO provides a framework for the tyre manufacturer to follow.
  • The dimension of the tyre noted on the sidewall is only a nominal figure and not the exact dimension of the tyre and give the framework for manufacturing tolerances.
  • Tyres from different manufacturers, can dimensionally be different, so long as they respect the tolerances as set by ETRTO.
  • Materials used in construction will vary greatly between manufacturers leading to differences in tyre performances and possibly differences in advice given.

 
I have attached a summary of Michelin advice for Motorhomes equipped with CP tyres.  This is taken from the 4W technical databook issued late last year.  


Thank you for contacting Michelin Customer Care.
 
Regarding your query about the recommended tyre pressure for our MICHELIN Agilis Camping tyres.
For MICHELIN Agilis Camping tyres: the rear (single) axle of a motorhome is 80 PSI (5,5bar) and for twin axle 69PSI (4,75bar). This should NOT be changed.
This is due to the construction of the tyre with two casing plies enabling the use of higher pressures. Its construction and the use of higher pressures is designed to cope with continual heavy loads sometimes found on motorhomes and can help with wear pattern issues that could arise if lower pressures were used, particularly on the rear axle.
 
The front tyres however can be adjusted down to a pressure of 65 PSI (4,5 bar) for a more comfortable ride and optimum performance. You start at this value and you can lower up to a minimum of 50 PSI (3,75 bar) depending on what feels more comfortable to you.
 
The attachment gave more detail about CP tyres in general but didn't give a table showing the full range of pressures v axle weights which Continental provides.  The advice they gave me for a front axle weight of 1500 kg seemed to be between 3.75 bar and 4.5 bar which I thought was a bit wishy washy.  Continental recommended 3.25 bar which is the unadulterated ETRTO figure, Pirelli 3.5 bar and TyreSafe 3.6 bar.  What they do all agree on is that it shouldn't be 5.0 bar which is the pressure I am having to use at the moment.  I reckon if you go with TyreSafe you won't go far wrong but I'm still on the case.
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Post by Gromit on Tue May 19, 2020 1:35 pm

What would you expect from Elli?

She sounds like a veri silli filli to me!  Whistle1 lol4

Sorri Elli - didn't mean it unkindli.
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Post by Cymro on Tue May 19, 2020 5:12 pm

That sweet, young Italian called Elli,
Comes, in fact, from Llanelli
She's almost obese
And waddles like geese
Revealing the tyres of her belli

Anon.
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Post by bolero boy on Tue May 19, 2020 5:24 pm

65 psi is way too high for the quoted weight on my Continental Vanco Camper CP...

they have advissed me that 43 psi is correct for the front axle weight of 1600kg. i run at this level, or a smidge more, and it seems just right, compliant but not skittish either.

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Post by Caraman on Tue May 19, 2020 5:54 pm

bolero boy wrote:65 psi is way too high for the quoted weight on my Continental Vanco Camper CP...

they have advissed me that 43 psi is correct for the front axle weight of 1600kg. i run at this level, or a smidge more, and it seems just right, compliant but not skittish either.
bolero boy
I can see you don't have an Auto-Sleeper.  Do you mind me asking what size of CP tyre you have and what are the plated tyre pressures and axle MTPLMs that came with the motorhome?  I reckon the only way of getting the front axle mass up to 1600 kg on an Auto-Sleepers Peugeot coachbuilt is by having a couple sumo wrestlers with lead ankle weights in the front seats and even then some of their weight will be transferred onto the rear axle due to load carried behind the axle in the long overhang.  I am not suggesting you are overweight!    drinksallround
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Post by bolero boy on Wed May 20, 2020 9:22 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Tyres are Continental Vanco Camper 225/75 R16 (CP*) 116 R tyres. 
  
Front Axle: 1600 Kg - 3.0 bar/ 43.5 psi 
Rear Axle: 1820 Kg - 3.75 bar/ 54.3 psi

no, i dont have an AS...i have a small, slim, light (6.4m x 2.12m) A-class from Carthago.

as its an A-class it has a larger cab, with a very large, panoramic windscreen and a drop down bed over the dash and cab seats.

all this will add a bit of weight to the front end but makes for a far better balanced van than one which has a pronounced rear bias.

despite the above, the MIRO is still around the 2650 mark, so definitely not overweight:allthumbz:

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Post by Paulmold on Wed May 20, 2020 9:50 am

It was brought to my attention that a Factsheet that I put on back in 2012 was still showing the 'old' Tyresafe website which gives individual rear pressures depending on axle weights. It gives these pressures for CP tyres as well as C tyres. It also does point out different figures for driven wheels. This was superceded by the later figures of 5.5bar as shown on the later website. So why was this changed, the construction of CP tyres hasn't changed? 
Take a look....scan down , don't click on the link which comes up with the later website.

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Post by mikethebike on Wed May 20, 2020 9:55 am

Some differences appearing!
My last rear wheel drive Mercedes was 51 f 65 r.
Just looked up and found an owner with a Neuvo. Tyres came with 72/79.
reduced them to 47/68.
this was advice from Continental (vanco Camper tyres)
He said no wonder i felt uncomfortable!!!
He said he feels  safer.He also said Peugeot  will reset sensors for 50 pound.
He just has constant flashing flat front tyres!!
Not my recommendation to not have the sensors reset. wave

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Post by mikethebike on Wed May 20, 2020 10:01 am

Paul.  That charity would be playing safe. They feel it safer to be over pressure than under.
Maybe covers the case in real life that tyre pressures are left to the MOT.However they dont check.
The main requirement is to check your tyres every MONTH.
Not just pressures but for damage. I always remove stones from the treads at the same time.

ps that A class is light.

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Post by Caraman on Wed May 20, 2020 12:21 pm

bolero boy wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Tyres are Continental Vanco Camper 225/75 R16 (CP*) 116 R tyres. 
  
Front Axle: 1600 Kg - 3.0 bar/ 43.5 psi 
Rear Axle: 1820 Kg - 3.75 bar/ 54.3 psi

no, i dont have an AS...i have a small, slim, light (6.4m x 2.12m) A-class from Carthago.

as its an A-class it has a larger cab, with a very large, panoramic windscreen and a drop down bed over the dash and cab seats.

all this will add a bit of weight to the front end but makes for a far better balanced van than one which has a pronounced rear bias.

despite the above, the MIRO is still around the 2650 mark, so definitely not overweight:allthumbz:
Thanks bolero boy.  That's a lovely motorhome and significantly lighter than the lightest Peugeot coachbuilt and with a lot more space.  Importantly your 225/75/R16CP116 tyres are a different size to our 215/70/R15CP109 tyres.  The only recommended tyre pressure that is common to both tyres is the rear at 80 psi 5.5 bar.  As you will see from using TyreSafe's online calculator which tracks the ETRTO and Continental recommendations, the recommended front tyre pressure for a front axle load of 1600 kg are quite different for the two tyres - 44 psi v 57 psi - so we must be careful not to compare apples with pears.  All the pressures I have quoted in previous posts have been for the 215/70/R15CP109. 

Are your axle masses of 1600 kg and 1820 kg actual masses when loaded?  If so, what are the front and rear axles' plated MTPLM and what are the plated front and rear tyre pressures?
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Post by bolero boy on Wed May 20, 2020 3:56 pm

Micky....
from the website...

Weight in running order
2825 kg
Unladen weight in standard condition
2640 kg
so, 675kg payload incl 20 ltr water.
of course, there are 'packs' to add, along with any other extras/accessories, plus all the usual paraphernalia, but we can run comfortably at 3.5t.

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Post by bolero boy on Wed May 20, 2020 4:11 pm

"Are your axle masses of 1600 kg and 1820 kg actual masses when loaded?  If so, what are the front and rear axles' plated MTPLM and what are the plated front and rear tyre pressures?"


yes, these are the fully loaded weights incl both of us, full fuel, full water, full gas and all the kit for a three month Euro tour.weights, incl a decent 'wine allowance'..


good point re tyre diameter/width, although some AS will come on the larger 16" wheels.

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Post by bolero boy on Wed May 20, 2020 10:21 pm

PS....cant find any tyre pressure stickers anywhere, just the usual weight plate.

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Post by Caraman on Wed May 20, 2020 10:36 pm

bolero boy wrote:PS....cant find any tyre pressure stickers anywhere, just the usual weight plate.
That's interesting.  Earlier during this saga the DVSA gave me the following advice:

I can confirm that the Plating and Testing regulations only apply to commercial Goods vehicles over 3500kgs. Goods vehicles and Motor Caravans (which are not considered to be Goods vehicles at any weight), less than 3500kgs are therefore not subject to these regulations. Therefore, if the only reason the TPMS system is not being adjusted is because the company believes the vehicle should be plated, I can confirm that this is not the case.

So the absence of a plated pressure on your motorhome may be quite in order.  What advice is given in your handbook on tyre pressures?
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Post by bolero boy on Thu May 21, 2020 10:07 am

re handbook, i dont know....these are often 'gereric' but ill have a look.
one thjng to remember, which may or may not be relevant, is that my van is not part of the NCC set up...which may insist on a tyre pressure sticker?

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Post by Caraman on Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:02 am

For anyone still following this trail, the DVSA VSB I initiated in March at the suggestion of the DVSA concluded last week that that they had insufficient evidence of an 'equipment safety defect' which is what the VSB is about.  However, they confirmed Peugeot's assertion that responsibility for setting tyre pressures after conversion to a motorhome including re-plating and adjusting the TPMS is the converter's responsibility.  I passed this to Alan Curry at the beginning of the week when I met him at Willersey.  Auto-Sleepers had assumed that tyre pressures were Peugeot's business which is why hitherto they have not taken advice from the tyre manufacturer (Continental) which Peugeot and the DVSA has recommended they do.  Auto-Sleepers are due to meet with their homologation contractor and I wait to hear the result.
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