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External Pump supply Empty External Pump supply

Post by Alan Berry on Wed Dec 26, 2018 11:32 am

The external pump doesn`t turn off from control panel when "External Pump Off" selected. When at the dealers having some other jobs done under warranty I was told that the pump only turned off when the tank was full on this model. The vehicle is a 2011 Nuevo. Interested to hear if this is correct.
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External Pump supply Empty Re: External Pump supply

Post by roli on Wed Dec 26, 2018 11:38 am

Right 1st things 1st  you are now posting ok

With the external pump that you use for filling from a container then the way to stop it is unplug from the van.
With the long hose attached to a tap then your dealer is correct in saying the pump will only stop when the tank is full but I think if you switch it off from the panel it should stop as you are turning off its electrical supply.

Perhaps someone with more knowledge than I with this van will comment
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External Pump supply Empty Re: External Pump supply

Post by Peter Brown on Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:23 pm

With this model and year, there are a few alternative control and fill systems that could have been installed.

From the information available, I would guess a Sargent electrical system either EC2007 or EC325 and a Whale fresh water fill system.

If my guess is correct, the Whale system for filling works independently of the Sargent control panel.


If the water level in the fresh water tank is less that full, a float operated switch opens an electrically operated vale inside the fill point to allow water in and make a 12v supply available at the fill point to power an external pump. When the tank is full, the valve closes and the power is removed. This system is designed so that it can work from either a full time mains water connection or an external water source with submersible pump to keep the fresh water tank full In the later case, if the water container is emptied before the internal tank is full, then the pump will keep running until disconnected/switched off.

Most use this system either by filling with a hose, possibly permanently connected or by connecting a submersible pump and water container till the level of fill is required them removing the pump

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External Pump supply Empty Re: External Pump supply

Post by safariboy on Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:01 pm

I like the whale system except for the problem that after about 2 years the mains water hose bulges and leaks. As they cost from £50 to £75 this is absurd.
I have solved the problem by taking apart the connector (4 screws) and cutting off the old hose.  The hose clip is put on by a machine and I had to cut off with a Dremel disk cutter. I have fitted a short length of good quality blue thick hose and a hose connector.  I could not find a small enough hose clip and could only fit a standard jubilee clip by cutting out a wide slot to accomodate the screw mechanism.  It does not seem to have made it significantly less strong.  Reassembly is a bit of a fiddle but it all seems to be sound.
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External Pump supply Empty Re: External Pump supply

Post by Mike187 on Wed Dec 26, 2018 8:36 pm

The Sargent EC328 operates just as Peter explains with the exception that the 12V must be switched on at the panel for the Whale to work either from a tap or external pump, I have on more than one occasion failed to do that when filling from a tap and wondered why it was taking so long to fill, luckily with no one waiting behind me!! I now listen for the water running into the tank to make sure.

The option on the control panel to switch the external Pump on does absolutely nothing apart from confuse you as it doesn't matter whether it is on or off for the pump to work as long as the 12V is switched on.

Mike

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External Pump supply Empty External pump supply

Post by Alan Berry on Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:24 pm

Thanks everyone for your help
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External Pump supply Empty Re: External Pump supply

Post by inspiredron on Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:22 pm

Mike187 wrote:

The option on the control panel to switch the external Pump on does absolutely nothing apart from confuse you as it doesn't matter whether it is on or off for the pump to work as long as the 12V is switched on.

Mike
You learn something new every day. When we bought our van the salesman took us through the EC3#8 controls and recommended that we choose "both pumps". I've never changed that!

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External Pump supply Empty Re: External Pump supply

Post by Mike187 on Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:02 pm

I'm sure that was the case when I was exploring the van controls, but that was three years ago. You have planted a seed of doubt in my mind, Ron. I'll have to check it next time I go and give the van a run out probably next week! 

That's the trouble with having it in storage, you can't nip out and check before you commit to writing it.

Mike

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External Pump supply Empty Re: External Pump supply

Post by inspiredron on Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:34 pm

Well - we will need to check it! I had always assumed that "power" on put power to that water pump setting and that the "output" of that setting split off into water pump switch and outside socket. On the EC328 there is another setting which purports to power the external pump for just 1 minute. That would seem pointless if the power to the pump terminals on the water socket is always on! Power to the input solenoid should be a different supply since that is needed even when not using the external pump. That is controlled by the main on/off on the 328 control panel.
My van is at the bottom of our garden and I will report back after putting a meter on those connections.

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External Pump supply Empty Whale water on Worcester

Post by rventhusiast on Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:22 pm

Hi everyone, although I am new to this forum I am not new to motor homing - first van was indeed an Autosleeper symbol of 1997 vintage but since then have owned a couple of IH PVC's and German coachbuilts. However, we hope to see a 2013 Mercedes Worcester shortly with a view to purchase but had a couple of questions in particular about the whale filler system. Have also had a caravan and the system is well suited to that but I think I prefer to just stick a hose pipe in a normal filler for the motorhome. So the question is can the whale filler be used with a hose pipe rather than the external pump or, can it be replaced with a normal filler opening?

Second question was in relation to the auto box - it's a 2.1 163bhp motor but in 2013 would it still be the 5 speed gearbox?

Sorry to hijack the thread slightly but I thought the whale question would still be relevant to the original post.

Many thanks.
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External Pump supply Empty Re: External Pump supply

Post by Gromit on Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:30 pm

I won't try to answer questions about the Whale filler, as our pipe and external pump went straight up into the loft. We only use the Fiamma "Hole in the wall" fill point.

I don't know if the Worcester had both type of fillers fitted, but if it didn't it's not a big job to install a Fiamma type. It can't replace the Whale inlet, but a separate fill point would give you all possible options.

If you intend to purchase the Worcester (from a dealer) I suggest you ask if a Fiamma fill point could be fitted as a "freebie" to grease the purchase. My guess is that they would agree, as it won't cost them a lot in either parts or labour.

Worth asking?
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External Pump supply Empty Re: External Pump supply

Post by Peter Brown on Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:35 pm

rventhusiast wrote:So the question is can the whale filler be used with a hose pipe rather than the external pump or, can it be replaced with a normal filler opening?

.


Yes, its designed to be used with a hose that can also be permanently connected to a mains water supply - see my post earlier in the thread.


Many coachbuilt vans have had a gravity water fill point added, peak to the Auto-Sleeper Service Centre at Willersey to find out if it can be done to the Worcester.

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Post by PLOUGHLIN on Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:36 pm

Can be filled from a tap, the hose must have the Whale end fitting at the van, this should come with the van.

2013 MB will be 5 speed auto box. Not as economical as the 7 speed but still a good gearbox.

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External Pump supply Empty Whale supply on a Worcester

Post by rventhusiast on Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:26 pm

Great replies - thank you. This Worcester does not have the Fiamma filler as well as the whale filler - I had seen this on a Winchcombe though so thought it may be possible to have both. I take it that if I connect the (supplied) whale connector to a hose then use a tap to fill I don't need to have the pump switched on as it just gravity fills through the connector? Have broached the subject of the dealer fitting a Fiamma type filler as part of the deal too.

Thanks again for the replies.

If I could perhaps just ask one other thing. I am well versed in the issue of MTPLM and axle weights on Fiat chassis - after having had to replace a Fiat 'Light' chassis which required new tyres with greater load capacity and rear air suspension - but have no experience of the Mercedes chassis. This particular on is 316 CDI I believe and plated at 3880kg. That may well be sufficient but, if it isn't, can this chassis be replated to a higher MTPLM and rear axle weight as a paper exercise (this is usually possible with the Fiat if on a 'Maxi' chassis) or would alterations such as air suspension be required? Perhaps some of you have already undertaken an upgrade?

Thanks again
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External Pump supply Empty Re: External Pump supply

Post by Peter Brown on Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:12 pm

rventhusiast wrote:Great replies - thank you. This Worcester does not have the Fiamma filler as well as the whale filler - I had seen this on a Winchcombe though so thought it may be possible to have both. I take it that if I connect the (supplied) whale connector to a hose then use a tap to fill I don't need to have the pump switched on as it just gravity fills through the connector?

The Whale fill system is quite complex (and completely independent of the Whale water distribution system from tank to taps).  You need the 12 v supply switched on at the control panel for it to work.  There is a switch operated by a ball valve in the tank, when the tank is not full that switch energises an electrically operated valve to allow water to flow into the filler and connects power to the filler socket.  If using a hose to a tap, the mains water pressure causes water to flow into the tank until the ball operated switch closes the electric valve. If using a container with a submersible pump, that pump is activated from the socket supply and switch on the whale plug.  The pump will operate when both the tank is not full and the switch on the whale connector is switched on.


rventhusiast wrote:If I could perhaps just ask one other thing. I am well versed in the issue of MTPLM and axle weights on Fiat chassis - after having had to replace a Fiat 'Light' chassis which required new tyres with greater load capacity and rear air suspension - but have no experience of the Mercedes chassis. This particular on is 316 CDI I believe and plated at 3880kg. That may well be sufficient but, if it isn't, can this chassis be replated to a higher MTPLM and rear axle weight as a paper exercise (this is usually possible with the Fiat if on a 'Maxi' chassis) or would alterations such as air suspension be required? Perhaps some of you have already undertaken an upgrade?

You can have the Mercedes 3880kg to 4000 kg as a paper exercise done by a firm such as Svtech.

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External Pump supply Empty Re: External Pump supply

Post by PLOUGHLIN on Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:23 pm

The MIRO for rear axle is 630kg less than the MTPLM, so rear axle upgrade isn't necessary, or possible (?). If the MTPLM of the rear axle is insufficient, you are doing something seriously wrong.

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External Pump supply Empty Re: External Pump supply

Post by GrahamF on Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:34 pm

Just to add one addition to Peter’s reply on the Whale inlet operation. There is also (on my Worcester) a pressure switch on the water inlet to permit operation of the solenoid valve, otherwise the solenoid would be energised all of the time and it does take a bit of power.

It was partly because of the complications and resultant reliability hazards that I finally had AS Willersey fit a hole in the wall additional water inlet - they feed this direct into the tank by a dedicated large bore pipe which makes filling straightforward and much quicker. 

Also confirm comments about the 5 speed auto box - could not be sweeter.

Regards - Graham
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External Pump supply Empty Worcester water filler

Post by rventhusiast on Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:52 pm

Thanks again everyone for your replies. It does sound like a (possibly very good) complicated water fill system so I think Graham's solution of a second water filler opening is the best way forward - also pleased to hear the 5 speed auto box is a good one as I've only ever had the Fiat comfortmatic which takes a bit of getting used to.

There may be other questions when we go ahead with the purchase but, for niw, thank you one and all for the information.
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Post by Paulmold on Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:23 pm

I found a post from 2015 stating it cost £190 to have a hole-in-wall filler fitted at AS.

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External Pump supply Empty Re: External Pump supply

Post by inspiredron on Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:50 pm

I had the option of having a hole in the wall fitted as a supplement to my Whale filler when the van was built. I declined as I did not want to lose more space in the Nuevo"s bed locker. I have never regretted that decision though I am very aware that others would disagree violently. The Whale filler has advantages and disadvantages that are well documented on this forum but it has always worked well for me.
On the Worcester the loss of locker space for what might be a randomly installed hole and filled pipe is probably not as significant as on the Nuevo.

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Post by GrahamF on Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:20 pm

Unfortunately I can’t confirm the separate cost for AS installing the hole in the wall filler as I had mine done at the same time as having the pump replaced with a Shurflo and hence they had to drop the tank anyway. 

The parts came to £35, but that was the loose change compared to their labour costs. As a first guess I don’t think Paul’s figure would be far out.

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Post by Gromit on Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:35 am

Hi Graham

Just a point to ponder.

I don't see why the tank would need to be dropped. A spigot could be fitted high on the side wall of the tank using Sikaflex and deep cut threaded s/s screws. I've done it on the bottom of our waste tank and it has been fine.

The fill point would be well above the level of the tank so there would be no problem in filling it to capacity.

I can't see a problem in fitting it like that, without the time consuming (hence expensive) need to drop the tank . . . am I missing something?
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Post by GrahamF on Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:06 pm

Hi Gromit

My submersible pump started to make unhealthy noises when we were out in Germany, so as it was 7 years old I thought it time to have it changed for a surface type that I could get at. Hence the tank needed dropping as AS don’t go in for leaving the submersible in situe.

That’s why I elected to have the “hole in the wall” done at the same time and why AS found it easy to put the entry in the top of the tank. (I am fairly sure that’s where they put it, but it was 6 months ago and I have had a few sleeps since then!).

Regards, Graham
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Post by Gromit on Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:39 pm

GrahamF wrote:Hi Gromit
My submersible pump started to make unhealthy noises when we were out in Germany, so as it was 7 years old I thought it time to have it changed for a surface type that I could get at. Hence the tank needed dropping as AS don’t go in for leaving the submersible in situe.
Exactly our experience, except that the submersible wasn't 7 years old!

Very pleased we did too, as the new one is now completely trouble free, and (as you say) can be easily got at if it ever does go wrong.

I don't know if they would fit a hole in the wall without dropping the tank, but I think it would be feasible??? I wonder if anyone has done it like that?
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External Pump supply Empty On the go modifications.

Post by Jansellsbond on Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:53 am

I have had several problems with my Whale system on our 2013 Broadway all of which had to be solved "in the field" as it were because we have been fulltiming for a couple of years now.  I replace the blue hose on my Whale connector when the old one split. (No Dremmel available unfortunately.) I bypassed the float switch with a rocker switch hidden below the settee when the original started chattering to itself and I had no way to drop the tank to replace it. But by far the most useful conversion I carried out was to replace the fresh water drain cock with a standard male garden hose connector. (Cost less than one Euro.)  I fashioned a removable female end stop and now fill direct from the hose in about 10 minutes. I fill until I see water coming from the overflow on top of the tank then turn off the tap.  I was originally concerned that the inlet pressure might be too high but 18 months of filling thrice a week from various sources at many different pressures has led to no problems whatsoever.  
No motorhome was ever designed to be lived in full time but ours is standing up to the task wonderfully and apart from a few minor scuffs inside and out looks as good as new.
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