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Post by Jaytee on Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:50 pm

I asked them the specific question today and they assure me they just turned the spring 180. It's in writing so happy with that allthumbz

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Post by Jaytee on Mon Mar 02, 2015 3:53 pm

Contacted AS re my concern as in 'springs fit for purpose' and they replied as follows:



 I have heard back from our Homologation engineer and I have also asked the question of our sales team who order the chassis in. 
Our Homologation engineer has said as follows;
"The rear axle is rated at 2430 kg max, which should be OK as calculations show max load of about 2130 kg when vehicle loaded to max GVW, assuming sensible distribution of load. However, it is unlikely that anyone would run at max GVW on this model, as there is a large payload." 
The sales team have told me that the chassis we order in for conversion have the following
1. C33- Uprated rear springs
2. C43- Uprated rear axle stabiliser
3. C45- Uprated front axle stabiliser
4. CE6- Suspension stability
These are the only differences regarding the chassis so I hope it is of use.



Now, this raises concerns; how can they calculate the max weight on the rear axle only being 2130 when we might have a towbar or whatever and the axle is rated to 2430, plus why would we have a unit plated for 3380 and not achieve it? Two big dogs weigh 70kg alone and as we often use Britstops etc we usually have a full tank of water plus some grey etc etc (but don't exceed 3880).
And I still want to know why the springs failed in the first place as I don't want the danger, the cost and the hassle of changing rear springs every 8000 miles.
I did say this but AS have no further answers so I will next address MB and see what comes back from them. Hopefully it can be traced to a bad batch of springs shrugg

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Post by PLOUGHLIN on Mon Mar 02, 2015 4:20 pm

Do those codes quoted tally with your chassis build list? I think the CE6 code is CF6. A50 and XL8 should be there as well.

I agree the rear axle load limit is quite likely to be reached, front axle less so.

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Post by Peter Brown on Mon Mar 02, 2015 4:28 pm

PLOUGHLIN wrote:Do those codes quoted tally with your chassis build list? I think the CE6 code is CF6. A50 and XL8 should be there as well.
I have all those codes on mine.

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Post by Jaytee on Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:14 pm

Yes, all the mentioned codes are there up!
I will mail MB and report back smile!

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Post by PLOUGHLIN on Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:22 pm

Jaytee wrote:Yes, all the mentioned codes are there up!
I will mail MB and report back smile!
I have come across a PDF document on the Sprinter Forum (US based) which gives all codes with explanations of what they provide.

PDF is large so can't link direct but it is here [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] post 2. Around page 70 for C33 etc.

Some interesting options shown, pity AS don't specify them

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Post by Peter Brown on Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:02 pm

A good read. Its 2015 spec and has the C33 as a two leaf spring. My 2011 van has C33 but the springs are only single leaf. Interested in what jaytee gets from MB on the subject.

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Post by Jaytee on Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:46 pm

If you go to the next page or so it shows code C38 which is a single spring for increased vehicle weight to 8550 lbs or, wait for it 3880 kg.

Hmmm. Perhaps ours should be to C38 spec not C33? 

I had MB Hull on phone today as MB Customer services who I contacted had fwd'd my mail to Hull for an input. Have passed this info to Hull.

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Post by Peter Brown on Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:49 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Above link to 2008 book.  The same sort of variants but ID codes are different to 2011 and 2015 books


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Above link to 2011 book. C33 is still supposed to be double leaf spring.  It must be noted that these books are specifically for North American vehicles.

I expect Jaytee is correct and that we have the single leaf spring for the 3880 kg variant

Peter


Last edited by Peter Brown on Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:58 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : 2008 link added)
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Post by Jaytee on Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:48 pm

Just heard (well 17.00 actually) back from MB dealer in Hull and all they can confirm is that the C33 springs are called up on my spec sheet and that is definitely what they have fitted.

(Help, how do you change the font size  confused3 Don't know why it's don't this)

So, if the USA specs are the same as Euro (which is the chassis spec AS use as cheaper than UK) then the C33 springs are only rated to 2250kg axle load. Mine is plated for 2430kg and working off actual weigh-bridge figures we will exceed the 2250 load at times. And certainly will when we fit a tow bar.

U.S.A C38. Springs are for 3880 GVW vehicle/ 2430 axle load. So, are the Euro C33 2250 or 2430 ?  This is the 'key' question as to whether or not mine are the correct ones and possibly why they broke.
It does also worry me that when moderately loaded I have barely an inch or even less between the bump stop and axle so virtually no articulation.

So next step MB themselves to see if C33 Euro is 2430 rated. What a flipping Load of hassle tap_fingers Glad I am chilled. At the moment hugegrins


Last edited by Peter Brown on Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:24 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : font formatting removed)

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Post by PLOUGHLIN on Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:58 pm

Your base chassis also has XL8 code, uprated to 3880 kg. I can't see that MB would use C33 with XL8 if it wasn't a correct combination. He says hopefully having the same codes on his chassis. up!

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Post by Jaytee on Wed Mar 04, 2015 11:26 pm

PLOUGHLIN wrote:Your base chassis also has XL8 code, uprated to 3880 kg. I can't see that MB would use C33 with XL8 if it wasn't a correct combination. He says hopefully having the same codes on his chassis. up!

Yes, that was also my assumption. BUT if not it would answer why both springs broke.

The code XL8 in the US specs sheets only says : the front and rear axle load ratings are 3970 lbs and 5360 lbs (2430 kg ) respectively. All good fun confused3

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Post by Jaytee on Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:51 pm

Update. Heard from Mercedes Customer Services on phone from Holland. Beautifully spoken lady called 'Sunny'. She was going down the route of what happens when springs break after the warranty period which was one of my concerns. However I did explain that we firstly need to ascertain that the springs are correct for the 2430kg rated back axle as if not that is why they broke as I often travel at or close to gross weight. Upshot is I want them (CS) to go to Mercedes and confirm the C33 heavy duty springs are rated to 2430 kg's which she agreed was a simple option and that is what she is now doing.

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Post by PLOUGHLIN on Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:42 am

Keep up the good work, Poirot.  allthumbz

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Post by Pete Taylor on Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:58 am

Poirot was Belgian... wasn't Tin Tin Dutch?  snigger


Edit:   No, apparently he was Belgian too!  Doh!

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Post by Jaytee on Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:07 am

This is doing my head in tap_fingers . After 50 years as an aircraft maintenance engineer I am of the mind set  ‘if something fails, find out why and stop it happening again’.

So, if two rear springs broke on a low mileage low age vehicle I ‘need’ too know why. And when my research shows the springs fitted are only rated to 2250kg on an axle that is rated to 2430Kg my annoying brain NEEDS an answer and I am finding it impossible to let go until I get one.

After a long call to the most supercilious, patronising condescending female I have had the honour of speaking to for a long time at Mercedes Customer Services UK  I have given up trying to sort this via the UK. 

Mercedes customer services will only go to Mercedes Truck and van at Hull who quite rightly can only check the vehicle data card which shows the springs fitted are as per the data card and it has SA code CF5 and XL8, yes agree. And all this damned woman kept saying was ‘it complies with the data card' aaaaaaaaaaargh!!! BUT is the data card correct for this weight? She refused point blank to ask the question of Mercedes.

My simple questions are: why did the springs break and are the 2250kg springs acceptable on a 2430Kg rated axle (and a weight I will achieve and possibly why the springs broke)?

So, next step before I get DVSA involved with a possible safety issue is to try the USA Mercedes people who seem to know what they are doing.
Yes, I know I am being a complete nuisance BUT I need to know. fight

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Post by redturner37 on Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:55 am

In a lifetime as a commercial vehicle engineer I have never seen a leaf spring which had the centre bolt in the centre. They are always offset and can be fitted the wrong way round. The centre bolt is to locate the spring in the axle and must NEVER be removed.  Single leaf springs are normally upgraded using a helper spring underneath the main spring but dont touch until the load is sufficient to require help This gives a softer unladen ride. Austin 7 s had quarter eliptic springs at the rear, goodness what kind of sports cars were you driving, lol.
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Post by Liam on Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:26 am

John,
Coming from the same background I totally agree and am completely with you on this - there needs to be an answer.
 
You cannot have two springs fail and not ask the question - WHY? 

Surely someone has calculated the overall weight against the design capabilities of the combined rear axle, chassis member and spring rating and come up with a number which should have a margin of safety allowance built in - that must be somewhere in the A/S build standard statement or data provided/endorsed by Mercedes. 

Otherwise DVSA would not have approve the build!! 

Which raises the question how do they (A/S) sign off vehicles to an increase in the overall weight capacity than the original catalog specified - At the time of purchase we were offered for ours to be raised to 4000kgs  if we required the additional capacity - but it would only be a paper exercise and nothing would have been changed on the chassis! Makes you think!!

I await the findings of your investigation with interest.

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Post by PLOUGHLIN on Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:14 pm

Liam, The built spec (from Mercedes) for my Gloucester,  and I think for Jaytee's Winchcombe, states that the base chassis is uprated to 3880kg gross (SA code XL8) from 3500kg standard. I assume that Mercedes know what they are doing and the other codes showing uprated suspension elements are sufficient.

It would be great to get confirmation, that C33 springs are correct for 3880kg gross.

Just reading the code explanations linked to earlier. C38 is uprated single spring for3880kg, but C33 says 2 leaf springs? My van only has single springs. confused3 confused3 confused3 confused3

( Build spec available here. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] )

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Post by Jaytee on Thu Mar 19, 2015 1:02 pm

Peter, I think the dual srings are on the 2015 model which does not bode too well re the strength of ours  confused3

I have already had a reply from USA that my queerie has been passed to the relevant dept. Fingers crossed 'might' get an answer.

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Post by Liam on Thu Mar 19, 2015 1:43 pm

Guys,

Build spec (delivered off MB line Dec 2013) for my rear is stated as C33 and on visual inspection is in fact only a single leaf - the Malvern having the same gross weight as both of yours - 3880kg!!

So await the reply from USA!

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Post by PLOUGHLIN on Thu Mar 19, 2015 1:43 pm

The link in Peter Brown's post above is to a 2011 SA code list. That says C33 is 2 leaf springs. USA spec may be different, but I doubt it. Read your post on the Sprinter Forum. There is a reply from lindenengineering asking for a photo of the broken spring.


Have you tried a email direct contact with MB in Germany? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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Post by Liam on Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:18 pm

Just looking at the MB stated build spec for mine and comparing it with the various codes, reveals;-
 
my build standard states C33 is;-  Rear Spring Harder as opposed to the code which states reads Rear Springs Harder - i.e. plural?

My vin code search also states that my van is XL8 - Weight variant 3880kg. Which would seem to back up the declared gross weight capacity.

Confused.

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Post by Pete Taylor on Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:41 pm

redturner37 wrote:.........................Austin 7 s had quarter eliptic springs at the rear, goodness what kind of sports cars were you driving, lol.
Austin Healey Sprite, MG Midget Mk1...    smile!

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Post by Pete Taylor on Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:49 pm

Jaytee,
Don't give up! I found myself bewildered by the many combinations of spring fitted to the post '06 Sprinter, different widths, different combinations of leaves and thickness of leaves. It nearly wrecked my head when I found out that my van, as delivered, was not what I ordered and even if it had, it would not have been to UK spec in any case!

It should not be possible to fit leaf springs in the wrong orientation- full stop.

Good luck.

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