1985 Talisman rear seat belt options

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1985 Talisman rear seat belt options

Post by gareth111278 on Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:28 pm

Hi . we're thinking of buying a 1985 Talisman on a Talbot chassis. I've asked the seller if there are rear belts fitted. He says no but the seats convert to face forwards. Does anyone know if mounting points are provided? Or if not how to fit a mounting point?
I've done some seatbelt fitting to  minibuses in the late 90s onto ribbed steel floors. What is the floor of a Talbot \ Talisman made of? I'm assuming its plywood like a caravan?
Any help would be most welcome as the seller seems a little monosyllabic!!
Cheers, Gareth :)
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Re: 1985 Talisman rear seat belt options

Post by gareth111278 on Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:46 am

Result!
I've just emailed Autosleeper , I got a message straight back saying that no mounting points were ever fitted to any Talismans.

I need to find out how people have been fitting belts to them now & see if I can replicate them.

First thing, does anyone know what the floor is made of?

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Re: 1985 Talisman rear seat belt options

Post by gareth111278 on Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:56 am

More results!
Just found all the fitting details , let me know if you want the link , I can't copy & paste on my Google pad! :(

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Re: 1985 Talisman rear seat belt options

Post by Peter Brown on Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:14 pm

Hi Gareth

Your exploring a subject that few if any of us have experience of, hence the lack of response. Thanks for keeping the post updated and as a matter of pure interest I would like to see the link to what you've found.

Peter

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Re: 1985 Talisman rear seat belt options

Post by inspiredron on Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:27 pm

My perception is that "home made" seat belt anchrages could be dangerous. You said that the seats are a moveable configuration so they cannot be used. Any floor ancharage points would need to be carefully located to coincide with structural chassis members having adequate strength. Any shoulder height fixing point would also need to be even stronger because of the pull from the top half of the body being thrown forward which will be totally impractical on anything other than a van conversion.
With care and suitable advice you may be able to fit lap belts but even then I would regard it as dodgy. I used to drive a minibus for the disabled and the equipment used to mate with bespoke floor fixings in order to restrain wheelchairs needed to be seen to be appreciated.
Badly fitted anchorages could result in bits of the body being torn off by the mountings in a bad crash with scope for horrific injuries.
You could go back to A/S or to Peugeot for further suggestons but, unless your chassis has certified mounting points I would expect them to give you no help because of their contingent liability.

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Re: 1985 Talisman rear seat belt options

Post by gareth111278 on Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:03 pm

http://www.motuk.co.uk/manual_530.htm

This is the link. ;)

Just finished work so i can post a better reply now. 
thanks to you both for your thoughts, I know im in uncharted waters here so I'll keep this going to have it for future reference on the forum.
As far as the safety of seatbelt mountings go. The link takes you to a page detailing the fitting requirements for retro fitting seatbelts to minibuses. these were drawn up in the wake of a spate of bad accidents involving minibuses in the late 80's & early 90's, most notably the M40 crash were a minibus with side facing seats ran into the rear of a stationary works lorry. 
I have spent my working life in the bus & coach industry, I trained a HGV/PSV machanic & i've also been a ClassIV (car) MOT tester. I know the government did a huge amount of research into the specific mountings to be used in the various types of vehicle detailed in the link. 
Basically I'm saying that I trust the systems that were devised & myself to install properly.
The only 'grey area' is the 'seat belt installation check', its only required for vehicles with more than 8 seats , motorhomes seem to have slipped through the cracks. I think the tester will just test whats presented & if it meets the criteria give you a pass!


Last edited by gareth111278 on Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: 1985 Talisman rear seat belt options

Post by gareth111278 on Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:04 pm

http://www.motuk.co.uk/manual_530.htm

This is the link. ;)

Opps posted twice  confused3

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Re: 1985 Talisman rear seat belt options

Post by modelman on Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:26 pm

I know you've already stated that you have the details, but just out of interest, MY 98 Talisman has square tubular steel 'space-frame' seat-mounts, & they are bolted through the floor & sides of the van.
The seat belts (lap & diagonal) are fitted to these, this applies to the 2 forward facing seats only, the 2 rear facing ones are 'standard' caravan type build & no belts.

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Re: 1985 Talisman rear seat belt options

Post by inspiredron on Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:40 pm

That link looks very comprehensive. When I wrote my last comment I had no idea of your experience in this field and was very condcious that the back end of a coachbuilt motorhome is generally a plywood floor sitting on a few chassis beams and surrounded by a clad lightweight box made of battens with thin ply on either side. Not the ideal for seat belt mountings unless you really know what you are doing!
Sorry if you felt I was trying to teach granny shrugg

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Re: 1985 Talisman rear seat belt options

Post by gareth111278 on Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:30 pm

Ron, Not at all, I often assume people will just know my skill set or assume everyone is as confident as me!

Model man, that set up is pretty standard on newer motorhomes and of course far superior to anything that can be achieved without a major rebuild of an early Talisman! Its what's accepted as standard now & the law is that you can only carry as many people as you have proper belted seats for in a motorhome built after a certain date.

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Re: 1985 Talisman rear seat belt options

Post by rose49f on Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:43 am

I would be very careful. I had an older van but changed it to a newer van that was made with four seat belts. I phoned the dvla and there are so many rules none of which would come into play unless you had an accident and caused an injury to one of your passengers. I couldn't risk it as my passengers are usually my grandchildren.
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Re: 1985 Talisman rear seat belt options

Post by gareth111278 on Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:58 am

To be honest Rose, that's nice if you have the money! I'd love a van new enough to have 4 3point belts but it's not on the cards.
DVLA will baffle you with science because they will not accept responsbilty if you had an accident & if challenged replied with "DVLA told me this would be OK"!

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Re: 1985 Talisman rear seat belt options

Post by rose49f on Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:55 am

Didn't buy a new van just a newer van. I am a pensioner who has to keep working to keep the van on the road. If I were you I'd as a local garage for advise. Surely they should know. Good luck with your quest.
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Re: 1985 Talisman rear seat belt options

Post by gareth111278 on Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:38 am

TBH now I know that the Talisman was never fitted with mounting points I know that all of them with rear belts must be retro fitted. If they've been retro fitted they should have been done to the specs detailed in my link.
"Should" is the key word here! On a mini-bus it would need the "seatbelt installation check" before its first MOT after conversion. As this doesn't apply to motorhomes & its not the MOT testers job to question the installation its very possible for substandard installations on motorhomes to slip through.
Therefore I'd rather do my own, I know its been done right then!

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Re: 1985 Talisman rear seat belt options

Post by The beast on Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:32 am

Hi, thanks for this thread, very useful info, however the link doesn't seem to be working! No surprising really as this was several years ago.

We've just bought a Talbot express with monocoque body and have 2  children (5 and 4months) so I need to find a way of fitting a 3 point belt in the rear somehow... Or have we bought a van that we can't do this safely too
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Re: 1985 Talisman rear seat belt options

Post by gareth111278 on Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:12 am

Hi I suspect that it'll be very difficult to get 3 point belts retro fitted to an older Autosleeper, it's a GRP monocoque yes?
You will need to look for seat belt fitters & enquire.
You.can have lap belts easy enough though. They will be legal & safer than no belts at all. I assume you'd need to check that what ever child seats you use are OK with lap belts only.
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Re: 1985 Talisman rear seat belt options

Post by The beast on Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:50 am

Hi Gareth! Wow quick reply, thanks ☺️

Hmmmmm yes I am beginning to think it's more complex than we had thought. It does have a lap belt fitted but I don't think there are any size 2 car seats that can be used with a lap belt... I shall investigate and see!

Just out of interest hat did you do with yours in the end?
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Re: 1985 Talisman rear seat belt options

Post by gareth111278 on Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:02 am

we bought one with lap belts fitted, our kids are in their teens so not a problem for us.
Just a though, You only need 1 extra 3 pointer though ;) you have one in the front already, no problem with your other half being in the back with a lap belt is there?

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Re: 1985 Talisman rear seat belt options

Post by The beast on Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:20 am

Sadly (as far as car seats go anyway!) we have 2 children. One will be 6 soon and the other is 4 months. The baby will need to go in the front using the 3 point harness which leaves my 6 yr old using the rear lap belt in a car seat of some kind. We have two but I don't think either can be used with a lap belt. I've contact a really good car seat specialist so will see what they say.

I think my partner spoke with a company that fit 3point belts and they said if it's a fibre glass construction they would need to locate an anchor point to a steel column which is difficult. Not sure why this didn't put him off persuing the vehicle!?!

I'm wondering if maybe it's possible to turn one of the seats so it's facing backwards behind the front passenger seat and a 3 point harness can be anchored to the door column? Hmmmmmmm *wanders off to investigate* ....
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Re: 1985 Talisman rear seat belt options

Post by Peter Brown on Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:11 am

The real concern in motorhome accident is the fixings and the contents of cupboards that fly around at great velocity and, in a coach built the low resistance of the walls to impact.  It is of concern in the cab but very much more so in the habitation area.

A modern motorhome that has been crash tested with manufacturer fitted 3 point belts is probably an acceptable risk for adults.

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Re: 1985 Talisman rear seat belt options

Post by The beast on Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:42 pm

Ah. So it's all a bit dodgy :(. Unfortunately a modern motorhome was out of our affordability and this one met all our needs within our budget... Apart from the minor matter of being able to safely transport both our children. Mmmmmm
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Re: 1985 Talisman rear seat belt options

Post by Peter Brown on Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:57 pm

I personally believe its impossible to eliminate risk. but it can be managed. As long as you aware of what can happen, I expect you will endeavour to ensure it doesn't occur.  That may sometimes require travelling in the company of your car but at other times may be a choice of a quieter route of time of day.  I appreciate how difficult that will be when you are working.  Do consider benefits as well as risks.  In the end only you can decide what to do.

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Re: 1985 Talisman rear seat belt options

Post by gareth111278 on Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:10 pm

Well said peter, if we never took a risk we'd never set out from our front doors!
I think that it's perfectly safe to use lap belts so long as you can get child seats to fit them.

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Re: 1985 Talisman rear seat belt options

Post by rogersrimini on Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:39 am

gareth111278 wrote:TBH now I know that the Talisman was never fitted with mounting points I know that all of them with rear belts must be retro fitted. If they've been retro fitted they should have been done to the specs detailed in my link.
"Should" is the key word here! On a mini-bus it would need the "seatbelt installation check" before its first MOT after conversion. As this doesn't apply to motorhomes & its not the MOT testers job to question the installation its very possible for substandard installations on motorhomes to slip through.
Therefore I'd rather do my own, I know its been done right then!
Sorry to be so late with a reply to this: I bought a new Talbot Talisman ES in 1994. It had the dual  position back seats and came with lap belts factory fitted. If you haven't cracked, or if anyone else is trying to crack, the problem it may be worth looking at one of the late models. These are the ones with 'facelift' cabs with the upside down headlight / indicator units.
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Re: 1985 Talisman rear seat belt options

Post by Trophyman on Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:35 pm

I have just purchased (to my great delight) a 1996 Autosleeper Amethyst on a Ford transit chassis. This has two three point seat belts fitted into the rear dinette seats, which was one of my key reasons for buying this model. I am going to see how they are fitted but I think they are mounted onto a frame at the back of the seat, so this may be a safe route to look at as you seek a solution, for your camper, Beast. Meanwhile, in my VW Trophy that I had before, I fitted two three point seat belts to anchors in the steel floor pan, so I have a fair amount of experience in that area. I am located in north Hampshire and you would be more than welcome to pop over and look at the Amethyst and some of the photo records I took of the Trophy seat belt project I took loads of pics to document it all!

Regards
Chris
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