Parking tickets....

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Parking tickets....

Post by groundhog on Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:54 pm

Parked in Falmouth on Customs House Quay which is controlled by an ANPR camera system, paid at the machine but noticed it only printed the first two letters of the car registration. Second sense told me to keep the ticket, low and behold a few days later a parking charge arrived from a company called Civil Enforcement Ltd of Liverpool.

Easy answer then, straight on the net, send a copy of the ticket and they will obviously cancel it having reviewed the circumstances. This done, I get a further letter saying appeal refused, no reason, just appeal refused you have 14 days to pay or the fee will double. 

I quote " By law we are also required to inform you that Ombudsman Services provides an alternative dispute resolution service that would be competent to deal with your appeal. However we have chosen not to participate in their alternative dispute resolution service. As such should you wish to appeal then you must do so to POPLA  ( Parking On Private Land Appeals)"

Cheeky bar stewards, I wonder how many people are silly enough to just pay up at this stage.
Obviously I will not be paying them a cent, I am looking forward to the forthcoming argument and maybe court case..... watch this space! drinksallround

The moral is check you parking ticket carefully and if in any doubt hang on to it! Had I thrown mine away?up!


Last edited by groundhog on Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:58 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : misprint)
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Re: Parking tickets....

Post by Paramedic on Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:09 pm

Good on you and for remaining resolute with your quest to hopefully shame the (what you describe) in court. up!

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Re: Parking tickets....

Post by PLOUGHLIN on Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:22 pm

That is 3 forums I use where Falmouth Customs House Quay parking problems have been raised. Sound like a rogue lot with the parking contract. Good luck.

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Re: Parking tickets....

Post by peugeotboxer on Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:10 pm

A wealth of info and help here:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/

PB
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Re: Parking tickets....

Post by groundhog on Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:53 pm

Thanks PB

Will now see how the appeal with POPLA goes... scratch head
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Re: Parking tickets....

Post by Bobskate on Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:51 pm

Just to show you how things could be....... We were in Northern France a couple of years ago and we parked in one of those many towns on the coast. Can't recall which. On the basis of there being safety in numbers we parked in a bay at the end of a row of MHs, overlooking the sea. There was a sign saying no charge between 12.00 and 2.00pm. A bit of a result all round. Upon returning from lunch I found a plastic wallet on my windscreen. Oh no...a ticket! Upon opening there was a letter from the local mayor in English pointing out that I may have inadvertently parked in a bay where MHs were not permitted. He asked that I respect the designated bays in the future and hoped that I had enjoyed my stay in his town. You could have knocked me down with a feather. Yes I had enjoyed my stay and yes I had spent money there i.e. Lunch. I looked at the bays, and the signage and yes I had made a mistake....I was one bay into the section for cars. I dropped him a note of thanks when I got back. Now tell me again why do I holiday in France..........
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Re: Parking tickets....

Post by oldfred on Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:50 pm

Many years ago I parked by mistake in a residents only street in Bad Godesburg.

On my return a polite note in English on the windscreen began 'Dear foreign guest' and then informed that if I had been a local I would have been given a ticket and fine. Happy holiday memories  smile!
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Re: Parking tickets....

Post by kaspian on Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:47 pm

Yes we have a lot to learn from ' johnny foreigner'   In dear old blighty you would have come back to find your van keyed by a local to teach you a lesson or a polite ticket on the windscreen demanding payment !  hugegrins

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Re: Parking tickets....

Post by Askit on Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:42 am

Apparently there are some here who don’t even like ambulances parking outside their houses  Whistle1 

In some car parks, particularly those at shops where they advertise restrictions like being in a bay etc, I’ve got into the habit of taking a photo for future evidence.

Good luck with the appeal  up!

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Re: Parking tickets....

Post by groundhog on Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:25 pm

Latest update is that in my case (incorrect registration) POPLA have rejected my appeal, I have now written to Falmouth Harbour Commissioners who will look at it again.

Have taken legal advice from a friend and there are several ways to challenge these "tickets" if they are genuinely incorrect so never pay up without a fight.

This one continues but I will be fighting them on the beaches.... up!
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Re: Parking tickets....

Post by bikeralw on Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:07 pm

I really hope you win this one. Good job you're not fighting the council, who seem to have bottomless pockets in disputes such as this. My niece once collected a ticket from a council controlled carpark due to overstaying by half an hour. She chose to challenge the council, lost, refused to pay the by then doubled fine, ignored all letters, and finally had 'The can't pay we'll take it away.' bailiffs call at her house with a bill for £1500..
Al.
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Re: Parking tickets....

Post by daisy mae on Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:47 pm

Years ago I parked in a street I have used regularly, no yellow lines or anything never had been,  so I parked as usual, there were white lines but stopped  few yards up the road, when I got back to the car I had a ticket, couldn`t believe it, said i had parked on yellow lines, 

I took two photos, one of the road where I was parked and another one further back in relation to the road. apparently they said there would be a yellow line as the road had been resurfaced they hadn`t got around to painting the lines, no yellow lines parking as usual, 
there had never been any at that end of the street, also it stated that my car was brown,in fact it was a grey Volvo Estate, the fine was waved,  they just said we let it go this time. nothing about they had got it wrong. Well it was council after all.

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Re: Parking tickets....

Post by Windychippy on Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:36 pm

On 24/07/17   I parked in a main Southampton carpark. Paid for 1 hours parking and went shopping. On returning and entering the car lent forward and remove ticket from dash. Then noticed Parking Charge Notice stuck to wind screen. Checked my ticket and still had 3 mins. left.  I noticed the warden near by and immediately started to berate him as to why.
He said my ticket had not been displayed according to the terms and conditions as displayed on all the notice boards ( it was upside down ) showed him the ticket but it was to late. 
 
Parking Charge is £85  or £50 if paid within 14 days 
So I appealed on 24/07/17
Appealed refused on 17/08/17 but now discounted to £20
I decide to not reply to future correspondence.
     04/09/17   Final Reminder  pay  £20
     22/09/17   Dept recovery Plus ltd   £160
     10/10/17   Dept recovery Plus ltd   £160
     25/10/17   Dept recovery settlement offer £136
     13/11/17  Zenith collection reduced settlement figure  £100
     06/12/17  Zenith collections within 14 days £100 or £160 thereafter.
 Nothing since.

Groundhog
I know your case is a bit different from this and if they are stupid enough to take you to court then you can enjoy your argument.
In my case after the appeal it's best to just ignore them as it's just a money making system against the ordinary person, and a lot of people just pay up.
 My wife was worried sick when I told her I would not pay up.  I have heard nothing since but if it ever came to court one has the option to pay before the court date.
So IMHO ignore them.

Cheers Windy up!
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Re: Parking tickets....

Post by groundhog on Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:04 am

Thanks all!

Very similar case Windy, well done in defeating it.

I spoke at length to my best friend who is a magistrate yesterday and he explained a lot about how the cameras work, the fines are issued and under which circumstances the small claims court would just laugh the case out.

In Al's nieces case they could it would seem claim damage by loss of revenue because she overstayed, but, by displaying a ticket upside down or not having a full registration shown they have suffered no loss or damage and therefore can not levy a charge against what amounts to nothing.

His advice was to send them a letter advising rejection of the charge and requesting the date of the court hearing, demanding it is at your local court. Should you receive correspondence other than this it would not be answered and a handling fee of £10 would be charged by yourself per document, call or visit.

You should also reconfirm your address for formal notification of the court hearing dates.

I have done this and confirmed my formal address for serving notice......

in British Columbia, Canada  hugegrins hugegrins ... should be fun!


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Re: Parking tickets....

Post by SteveUK on Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:50 am

A quick warning - don't necessarily rely upon advice from a magistrate in a case such as this.  Their experience is largely concerning criminal matters, whereas this is almost certainly a matter of contract law.

On the face of it, if Civil Enforcement have followed correct procedures, you are probably going to lose if it should go to court.  It's nothing to do with them having suffered no loss, and you being able to prove that you paid.  If the terms & conditions of the car park clearly state that you have to enter the full vehicle registration then you have provided the "proof" that you did not.

In fact you probably did enter it correctly, and no doubt their ticket machine was at fault.  But that is one (of many) of the points upon which you need to defend your case.  What would greatly assist is a list of other instances where the same problem has been encountered.

I strongly suggest that you follow the link provided by peugotboxer in post #4.  You will get some excellent advice on that site, plus access to a load of other cases at the same location which have been won.  In fact, I'm willing to bet that had you known about it and gone there for advice before your initial appeal and the one to POPLA, you would have put this to bed at that stage.

As for your case Windy, make sure that you keep all the evidence safely as they have six years to start any proceedings.  They sometimes leave it for a few years in the hope that you may move and not receive the court papers so that they get a default judgement.


Edit:  There's a current thread on PePiPoo concerning the same location. . . . . . . http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=118803
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Re: Parking tickets....

Post by matts vw on Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:21 am

Hi, I had a similar problem at a Matalan carpark, girlfriend put one letter in wrong, appeal denied, so appealed to popla and at same time sent a polite but very angry email to Matalan, popla then sent a letter saying it was dropped, a month later Matalan changed the parking company, obviously we weren't the only ones, I would have gone to court over it as I was quite angry that they were being stubborn over one letter, but as others have said it can cost a lot more

Matt
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Re: Parking tickets....

Post by groundhog on Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:40 am

Thanks Steve, appreciate the link but it is one I have already posted on and read at length!

The matter is now with the landowner, not holding out a lot of hope but whatever the cost I will take it all the way. If it costs me a few hundred pounds more so be it, I will have had my fight and that is the cost of losing..... but it will not come to that!
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Re: Parking tickets....

Post by SteveUK on Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:18 pm

groundhog wrote:Thanks Steve, appreciate the link but it is one I have already posted on and read at length!

The matter is now with the landowner, not holding out a lot of hope but whatever the cost I will take it all the way. If it costs me a few hundred pounds more so be it, I will have had my fight and that is the cost of losing..... but it will not come to that!


Excellent!  Let's hope that the new bill going through parliament will clip their wings a bit.  I won't hold my breath though - they've c0cked it up previously and I have no doubt they will use that skill again!

Just to re-iterate for others:  no matter how logical and morally right your arguments are, please take advice before any contact with these "parking companies".  For example, in many cases, so long as you do not admit who was driving, they cannot transfer liability for the driver's parking charge to the vehicle's keeper under the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA).  As long as you don't tell 'em who that is, they have nobody to chase. 

In Groundhog's case there is a belief that the land involved is subject to bye-laws.  If that is the case, the PoFA does not apply (take note if railway/port/airport land is involved) and they can only chase the driver.  So you see that appealing to them initially as the driver immediately removes a very useful defence!
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Re: Parking tickets....

Post by inspiredron on Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:27 pm

With the benefit of hindsight:
1: These machines normally show your ref no in full before you press the green button to complete the transaction. CHECK IT - THAT IS YKUF RESPONSIBILITY. If you checked and the ticket is incomplete then put a note alongside the ticket stating what has gone wrong. If it is one character out on the keyboard you are on shaky ground legally - you COULD be using someone else's ticket. In your case you have a better chance. Whatever, your note will be captured by the warden's photo and you can photo it too. The safest way would be to get a new ticket and send a photo of both to the parking company for a refund - unlikely if it was your mistake but justified if it's the machine error.
I was lucky when it happened to me - local car park, first half hour free but still need a ticket. By mistake (or a dickey keypad) I got only first 2 characters. Screwed it up and got new ticket
ALWAYS LOOK AT WHERE TO DISPLAY IT! If it says left or right then do so - if it says on dashboard (so that they have got you if it owe as you get out then OBEY and don't use your clip. Then the scrotes can't get you. If the cash machine gives you no chance to verify your number then you have a better case.

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Re: Parking tickets....

Post by groundhog on Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:46 pm

Progressing well, it is now with the Harbour Commissioners for action who have verbally confirmed they do not want to take action in cases where it is obvious I actually bought a ticket or there is no absolute proof whether it was my fault or a machine error.

The argument from the parking company was I should have spoken to the warden or called the help line.

There is no warden at that location.There is no helpline on any of the signs or the machine itself. Nothing at all on how to contact the company except the automated payment line and an office number in tiny print at the very end. Apart from the original ticket I also have telephone records that I tried to call the company after hours but got an answerphone.

I gave the harbour authority a big file of pictures, phone records etc so lets see what happens next.

POPLA is about as much value as a chocolate teapot.

They had better get a move on though because I return to Canada in three weeks time and will not be back for a while! allthumbz
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Re: Parking tickets....

Post by Gromit on Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:28 pm

One thing that annoys me a lot!

If I buy a parking ticket for (say) two hours, whether it has my registration number on it or not, why can't I give it to someone else for the second hour if I leave after only one hour?

I have bought and paid for that parking space for a two hour period, and if I want to give the second hour to someone else, surely it's mine to give.

Otherwise that means the parking company is selling the same one hour slot twice - once to me, and again to the person who occupies it for the second hour.

That can't be right - can it?

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Re: Parking tickets....

Post by groundhog on Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:37 pm

Excellent point Dave!  up!

I guess though the space is sold as non transferable? Robin Hood and his merry men are bound to have an answer.... the company in our case is appropriately based in Nottingham snigger
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Re: Parking tickets....

Post by rogerblack on Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:43 pm

I agree it's unfair and annoying Dave but one of the terms & conditions of parking is usually that the ticket is not transferable and this is often printed on the ticket.

When I was entering a car park in Windsor a couple of years ago, a lady who was leaving wound her window down and offered me her unexpired ticket. When I politely refused she got quite offended, until I pointed to the attendant who was standing with his camera at the ready to photograph me accepting it. I happened to know that several people had already been ticketed for this in that very car park.

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Re: Parking tickets....

Post by SteveUK on Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:33 pm

groundhog wrote:
. . . . . .

They had better get a move on though because I return to Canada in three weeks time and will not be back for a while! allthumbz

When you return to Canada, whatever the state of play is at that time, make sure you write to the parking company and the Harbour Commissioners and clearly state that your new address is the one in Canada.  That way they will be unable to legitimately issue proceedings against you as you will be outside the court's jurisdiction.  As long as you post the notification first class (keeping a copy of course) and get a free certificate of posting from a Post Office, they will be very hard-pushed to be able to deny receiving it.  All belt-and-braces stuff just in case.
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Re: Parking tickets....

Post by groundhog on Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:40 am

Thanks Steve!
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