leisure Battery

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leisure Battery

Post by rgermain on Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:35 am

I know this subject has been mentioned many times before, but it now affects me.

My Leisure battery on our Warwick, now 20 months old, well since purchase, build date 2015 by A/S, does not hold it's charge.

I get 14.4v on mains charge for 48hrs and when off charge and left for 12 hrs it drops to 11.1v and I also have a 120w solar panel connected.

All circuits are off, apart from the main switch on the EC500.

It would seem that Alphaline XV27MF are no longer made, no results on line, but I did notice that most have a 4 year cover.

Have A/S fitted an end of line product? I will contact my dealer next week.

Am I missing some thing?

Richard
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Re: leisure Battery

Post by PLOUGHLIN on Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:22 pm

Tanya still have them https://www.tayna.co.uk/XV27MF-Powerline-Leisure-Battery-P8972.html

A recent thread on here said AS only guarantee for 90 days. Sounds like one of the cells has failed.

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Re: leisure Battery

Post by Mel Battersby on Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:47 pm

Hi Richard
Peter's observation of the status of your battery is likely to be correct. Your reading of 14.4v when fully charged may not however be correct. It has been said before on the forum that to get a true battery voltage reading you need to leave it with no charger and no load connected for an hour or so.
Again from the forum I follow this advice:
Checking the voltage across the battery terminals provides a good indication of the state of charge, but you need a good multimeter and the measurement has to be across the terminals [not some remote wires where you will most likely get voltage drop]. The battery charge table I use [again I think it was from the forum] is as follows:
12.7-8 volts, 100% charge.
12.6 volts, 75% charge.
12.3 volts, 50% charge. [Always try not to discharge below 50% of battery power for longer life]
12.0 volts, 25% charge.
11.8 volts, discharged.
[My handbook says do not discharge the L battery below 10v & do not discharge the V battery below 11v.]
Sorry if most of the information above is irrelevant to your present predicament but it might help others who are interested in this topic area.
Mel
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Re: leisure Battery

Post by rgermain on Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:48 pm

PLOUGHLIN wrote:Tanya still have them https://www.tayna.co.uk/XV27MF-Powerline-Leisure-Battery-P8972.html

A recent thread on here said AS only guarantee for 90 days. Sounds like one of the cells has failed.

Thank you, taking the van back next Thursday for a FOC awning fabric replacement due to a tear at the leading edge, so if they can spare me the time I will ask about the guarantee.
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Re: leisure Battery

Post by rgermain on Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:54 pm

Mel Battersby wrote:Hi Richard
Peter's observation of the status of your battery is likely to be correct. Your reading of 14.4v when fully charged may not however be correct. It has been said before on the forum that to get a true battery voltage reading you need to leave it with no charger and no load connected for an hour or so.
Again from the forum I follow this advice:
Checking the voltage across the battery terminals provides a good indication of the state of charge, but you need a good multimeter and the measurement has to be across the terminals [not some remote wires where you will most likely get voltage drop]. The battery charge table I use [again I think it was from the forum] is as follows:
12.7-8 volts, 100% charge.
12.6 volts, 75% charge.
12.3 volts, 50% charge. [Always try not to discharge below 50% of battery power for longer life]
12.0 volts, 25% charge.
11.8 volts, discharged.    
[My handbook says do not discharge the L battery below 10v & do not discharge the V battery below 11v.]
Sorry if most of the information above is irrelevant to your present predicament but it might help others who are interested in this topic area.
Mel

Thank you for the info, sorry I got it wrong, I should have said 14.4v when on charge, when off charge it starts at 12.8v, but very quickly drops to 11.2v. Which ties up with what you say about a cell gone.

I am suspicious that while the van was at A/S  some 7 months and 12 months since being imported no one bothered to charge the batteries. Maybe we should budget in for new batteries when we buy what is meant to be a brand new van!
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Re: leisure Battery

Post by Peter Brown on Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:02 pm

I replaced my 6 year old original fit MV24MF earlier this year. Alphaline does not seem to exist as a brand anymore. From Go Outdoors I got a unit with an identical case so guess from the same production line. The capacity was reduced from 80 to 75Ah but that is because of the new EU standard. It was on offer and an excellent price but the brand name is not on the invoice and I'm not stripping the bed to get at it till next spring.

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Re: leisure Battery

Post by bolero boy on Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:19 pm

the 14.4v you are reading is the output voltage of the charger...
with the resting charge quickly falling to 11.2v the technical term for this battery state is "bu**ered"
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Re: leisure Battery

Post by rgermain on Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:25 pm

bolero boy wrote:the 14.4v you are reading is the output voltage of the charger...
with the resting charge quickly falling to 11.2v the technical term for this battery state is "bu**ered"

Thanks, I had a senior moment when I said 14.4v, with the charger off it sits at 12.6v then drops to 11.2 nothing drawing current as I have disconnected one of the connectors.

As you say "bu**ered"

Has anyone on here had any luck getting a leisure battery changed FOC under warranty? as I see A/S give it 3 mths!!!!!!! censored!
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Re: leisure Battery

Post by bolero boy on Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:05 am

while, i guess you'll need a new battery, you also need to be able to identify if there is any 'rogue' draw on the battery that you dont know about.
yes, the battery goes down even when disconnected, but this is because its now knackered, what needs to be determined is what got it into this state in the first place, was there a parasitic draw that ypu were unaware of where the battery got drained when you thought all systems were 'off'?
an ammeter (especially those that fot around a cable) can quickly show if any amps are being drawn from the battery when you think there shouldn't be....
anything over a few milliamps will quickly pull a battery down and eventually kill it if left unattended.
if you do discover a draw, you can identify which circuit is responsible by pulling fuses one at a time....when the draw stops you have found the culprit....its then a question of finding why that particular circuit is drawing current when it shouldnt...a short perhaps?
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Re: leisure Battery

Post by AutoSleepyDon on Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:13 pm

bolero boy wrote:an ammeter (especially those that fot around a cable) can quickly show if any amps are being drawn from the battery when you think there shouldn't be....
A "clamp meter".
I got one from Maplin for £30 and identified a parasitic cuurent draw on my car battery.
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Re: leisure Battery

Post by rgermain on Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:08 pm

Thank you all for your help. The only drain I could find was leaving the EC500 switched on as advised to enable the Solar panel to switch between batteries as required.

Well my latest test today was to charge the batteries on EHU for 24 hrs, the leisure battery started at 12.6v, I then removed one of the connectors so it was stand alone, after 1hr the o/p was down to 11.3v.

So that's it, a new one I think is on it's way. Pity as it's only 20 mths old, no date marked on it, + any time standing in a discharged state while the van was built and standing on the dealers forecourt.

I am contacting the dealer tomorrow, but not expecting any real financial help. Good job they are about £100 chinwag
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Re: leisure Battery

Post by mikethebike on Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:03 pm

rgermain wrote:Thank you all for your help. The only drain I could find was leaving the EC500 switched on as advised to enable the Solar panel to switch between batteries as required.

Well my latest test today was to charge the batteries on EHU for 24 hrs, the leisure battery started at 12.6v, I then removed one of the connectors so it was stand alone, after 1hr the o/p was down to 11.3v.

So that's it, a new one I think is on it's way. Pity as it's only 20 mths old, no date marked on it, + any time standing in a discharged state while the van was built and standing on the dealers forecourt.

I am contacting the dealer tomorrow, but not expecting any real financial help. Good job they are about £100 chinwag
Hi Batteries do have a date on them.However in my experience it is a hidden code only for the manufacturer. confused3

Micky
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Re: leisure Battery

Post by bolero boy on Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:39 pm

rgermain wrote:Thank you all for your help. The only drain I could find was leaving the EC500 switched on as advised to enable the Solar panel to switch between batteries as required.

Well my latest test today was to charge the batteries on EHU for 24 hrs, the leisure battery started at 12.6v, I then removed one of the connectors so it was stand alone, after 1hr the o/p was down to 11.3v.

So that's it, a new one I think is on it's way. Pity as it's only 20 mths old, no date marked on it, + any time standing in a discharged state while the van was built and standing on the dealers forecourt.

I am contacting the dealer tomorrow, but not expecting any real financial help. Good job they are about £100 chinwag

as i said earlier, yes you will need a new battery...BUT before you emd that cash, ypu need to check what (if anything) caused it to drain....otherwise you will end up in the same position with the new battery....and the one after that...
ok, you 'only' have the EC500 turned on..but this may activate a number of 'monitoring' circuits which 'may' be drawing far more than it should.
the first test is to measure the draw with the EC500 on....this should be low, a few miliamps...
if this is so, then go ahead with the fitting of a new battery, however if its (say) 300 ma or higher then there is a problem that needs identifying...
this is easy to do by just pulling the fuses one at a time and noting when the draw lessens...
once you know which circuit, you might be able to understand why the large draw is there...
ive just gone through this same process as my behicle battery went flat.....it turned out that the flashy Pioneer DVD/radio/satnav was pulling 1.8 amps when in standby.....
ive cured the issue now but needed to find which circuit was at fault before being able to do something about it....
good luck.

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Re: leisure Battery

Post by Paramedic on Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:40 pm

As a point of interest, has anybody pondered on the viability of the given number of years warranty on any battery? Being somewhat cynical on such claims and given that any approaches to the supplier to a premature battery failure is more likely to met with ''operator error'' as the cause e.g. ''allowed battery to completely discharge" Could prove more difficult to contest if bought on line from a distant location rather than say local dealer/garage?


Last edited by Paramedic on Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:42 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Missing speech marks)

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Re: leisure Battery

Post by rgermain on Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:29 pm

Paramedic wrote:As a point of interest, has anybody pondered on the viability of the given number of years warranty on any battery? Being somewhat cynical on such claims and given that any approaches to the supplier to a premature battery failure is more likely to met with ''operator error'' as the cause e.g. ''allowed battery to completely discharge" Could prove more difficult to contest if bought on line from a distant location rather than say local dealer/garage?

Good point, if I have to pay for a new one myself, will try Chichester Caravans in Nutbourne for a price, not far to take it back if needed.
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Re: leisure Battery

Post by meanchris on Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:08 pm

Among my many current measuring devices, (including a 3000A Rogowski probe, 200A AC oscilloscope clamp probe, and several multimeters), I have a 1000A AC/DC (keep on rockin' Angus) Avo/Megger DCM2039, and this little beauty.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/UNI-T-UT210E-Current-Meters-Capacitance/dp/B00O1Q2HOQ

A UNI-T UT210E
2A-100A AC/DC in three ranges.
AC/DC Voltage (I wouldn't chance it above 230V)
Capacitance, continuity, diode test, resistance.
NCV (Live cable test).

It's an absolute gem for use in a motorhome, as ypou can clip it round 12V DC cables to measure the current non invasively.

£27.99 is an absolute bargain - get one. (Peter and Mojo et al will definitely love one of these  up!  )

P.S. Amazingly, for a cheap Chinese device, it can be amazingly accurate if used properly (you MUST zero the DC current, as it's susceptible to changes in the local magnetic field when it's moved around)

There's a big thread on the engineer's EEV blog forum, where they have been hacked and modified, it's very versatile.

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Re: leisure Battery

Post by rgermain on Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:18 pm

Maplin have one at £9.99! I wonder if it is any good at that price?
Oh dear I see why, only AC current!
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Re: leisure Battery

Post by meanchris on Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:17 am

rgermain wrote:Maplin have one at £9.99!  I wonder if it is any good at that price?
Oh dear I see why, only AC current!

smile!

Believe me, (look into the eyes, not around the eyes), the UNI-T UT210E is the only good Hall Effect contender at anywhere near that price.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/a-look-at-the-uni-t-ut210e/

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Re: leisure Battery

Post by TravelKat on Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:52 am

rgermain wrote:
Has anyone on here had any luck getting a leisure battery changed FOC under warranty? as I see A/S give it 3 mths!!!!!!! censored!
We were in exactly the same boat about a month ago, vehicle about the same age, I posted on here about it.  No luck with the dealer, and as for AS?  Forget it, the reply was along the lines of: you can send the battery back to us, but experience has shown us that the fault usually lies with the user.  AS also told us that they changed the terms of battery warranty in 2010, as they got a lot of claims until then, which were proven to be the fault of the user, that's why now it's only 90 days.

If you're interested, the link to that thread: HERE

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Re: leisure Battery

Post by rgermain on Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:58 am

meanchris wrote:
rgermain wrote:Maplin have one at £9.99!  I wonder if it is any good at that price?
Oh dear I see why, only AC current!

smile!

Believe me, (look into the eyes, not around the eyes), the UNI-T UT210E is the only good Hall Effect contender at anywhere near that price.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/a-look-at-the-uni-t-ut210e/

Yep, one is on it's way to me, UNI-UT210E that is, Thanks for the link.

Richard up!
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Re: leisure Battery

Post by rgermain on Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:02 am

TravelKat wrote:
rgermain wrote:
Has anyone on here had any luck getting a leisure battery changed FOC under warranty? as I see A/S give it 3 mths!!!!!!! censored!
We were in exactly the same boat about a month ago, vehicle about the same age, I posted on here about it.  No luck with the dealer, and as for AS?  Forget it, the reply was along the lines of: you can send the battery back to us, but experience has shown us that the fault usually lies with the user.  AS also told us that they changed the terms of battery warranty in 2010, as they got a lot of claims until then, which were proven to be the fault of the user, that's why now it's only 90 days.

If you're interested, the link to that thread: HERE

Thank you for your help. Yes thought that would be the case. 90 days! when it's been standing in their workshop/ forecourt! for ages discharged, utter disgrace to A/S again.
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Re: leisure Battery

Post by meanchris on Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:13 am

rgermain wrote:
meanchris wrote:
rgermain wrote:Maplin have one at £9.99!  I wonder if it is any good at that price?
Oh dear I see why, only AC current!

smile!

Believe me, (look into the eyes, not around the eyes), the UNI-T UT210E is the only good Hall Effect contender at anywhere near that price.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/a-look-at-the-uni-t-ut210e/

Yep, one is on it's way to me, UNI-UT210E that is, Thanks for the link.

Richard up!

up!

A couple of tips:

1. Remember that it's very sensitive on the low DC current ranges, you MUST zero it and then keep it in the same orientation to avoid magnetic field errors.

2. DON'T use it to measure the van's engine start current, you'll magnetise the clamp ferrite and have to de-gauss it to make it work properly again, (not a permanent disaster though).

3. Use the NCV setting to check for live 230V AC, it actually works extremely well with a series of faster and faster beeps, the closer you get to a live conductor.
You can use it to check that there's a supply at a campsite EHU socket for example, it will even tell you which socket pin is the 'live'.
You don't have to clamp it around a cable for this, just point the bump on the tip of the clamp to where you want to check, it beeps when it's about 1cm from a live cable.

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Re: leisure Battery

Post by TravelKat on Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:14 am

rgermain wrote:
TravelKat wrote:
rgermain wrote:
Has anyone on here had any luck getting a leisure battery changed FOC under warranty? as I see A/S give it 3 mths!!!!!!! censored!
We were in exactly the same boat about a month ago, vehicle about the same age, I posted on here about it.  No luck with the dealer, and as for AS?  Forget it, the reply was along the lines of: you can send the battery back to us, but experience has shown us that the fault usually lies with the user.  AS also told us that they changed the terms of battery warranty in 2010, as they got a lot of claims until then, which were proven to be the fault of the user, that's why now it's only 90 days.

If you're interested, the link to that thread: HERE

Thank you for your help. Yes thought that would be the case. 90 days! when it's been standing in their workshop/ forecourt! for ages discharged, utter disgrace to A/S again.
That is exactly how we felt/feel.  My OH is extremely technically competent (he earned his living in electronics) and saw red when the reply stated that they were sure they would find the battery had not been charged correctly! AS manager even stated in his reply that the charge on the battery was measured in amps, again, red rag to my OH, who replied that the charge is measured in joules, ie watt/seconds.  Needless to say we didn't get a reply back, nor a new battery!

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Re: leisure Battery

Post by Peter Brown on Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:25 am

meanchris wrote:
rgermain wrote:Maplin have one at £9.99!  I wonder if it is any good at that price?
Oh dear I see why, only AC current!

smile!

Believe me, (look into the eyes, not around the eyes), the UNI-T UT210E is the only good Hall Effect contender at anywhere near that price.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/a-look-at-the-uni-t-ut210e/

I was cynical but now have one and endorse the comments made by meanchris.

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Re: leisure Battery

Post by Peter Brown on Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:29 am

TravelKat wrote:the charge is measured in joules, ie watt/seconds. 

A joule is electrical energy equal to the work done when a current of 1 ampere is passed through a resistance of 1 ohm for 1 second. I've never heard of a joule being used to record the rate of charge or discharge of a battery. I would be grateful if someone can point me at some relevant literature?

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