fridge

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fridge

Post by luxorone on Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:56 am

my Dometic model number RM4213s does not seem to work.
12v nothing, no light on the 12v on/off switch, (engine running and turned on at the zig unit, zig fuses all ok)
there's a yellow spark on the gas but it does not light. (van level)

I plugged into 240 volts today. 
the green 240 volt switch of the fridge lights up and stays on with the temperature control set to zero,
but when you adjust the temperature control it trips the trip switch on the van as well as the house.
all other 240v items seem to work ok when not using the fridge.

also I removed the zig panel (labcraft model number DS220C mkII)  (2?)
inside there is a black block with 3 spade connectors, but no wires connected to it, and none hanging loose.
I'm guessing this should not be the case.
any idea what this block is/does
any ideas or suggestions on the 240 v trip causes please
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Re: fridge

Post by brodco on Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:39 am

Hi  wave

It would help to know the year of the van.
luxorone wrote:also I removed the zig panel (labcraft model number DS220C mkII)  (2?)
Que !  Zig/Labcraft  any chance of a picture?  scratch head
luxorone wrote:inside there is a black block with 3 spade connectors, but no wires connected to it, and none hanging loose.
any idea what this block is/does
Fridge relay ? but there should be four connectors, again a picture would help. There was a thread about fridge problems on a Legend here:

http://www.autosleeper-ownersforum.com/t20861p75-12v-problems-when-hooked-up#178419

The wiring of AS models tends to be similar so there is a lot of info that may be useful if your van is a similar age. The relay behind the panel looked like an "add on" (i.e. bodge) but perhaps it wasn't.
luxorone wrote:any ideas or suggestions on the 240 v trip causes please
Almost certainly the 240V element internally shorted to earth so as soon as you turn the thermostat up it switches on and takes the trip out.

Hopefully someone that knows about the gas side of things will be along later.

Brod
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Re: fridge

Post by luxorone on Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:48 pm

thank you for the answer.
its a 1988 talisman 2
my zig unit looks the same as this one.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/tickman1972/26476121595/
the block in question is the same as this (top right)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/tickman1972/26409992481/in/photostream/
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Re: fridge

Post by brodco on Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:00 pm

Hi wave 

Ah I see, the panel isn't a Zig panel it's a Lab-Craft panel. I didn't even know they made them (you learn something every day) but for the purposes of finding the problem it doesn't matter anyway.

The black block looks very much like a relay (can’t think what else it would be), are you sure there isn't a fourth connection hidden behind the PCB?

Looking at the front of the panel it looks as if the right hand switch is labelled "Refrigeration" and looking at the back of the panel both switches are supplied from the same point (the wire from the PCB to the top of both switches) so that is probably 12V  although the wire looks too thin to be the main fridge feed (but as it’s a very short run they may get away with it).  The question is whether the switch is supposed to switch 12V directly to the fridge or to a relay coil.

Anyway as there are no wires connected I'd ignore the block for now and carry on fault finding. If it is relevant it should become obvious during the procedure, it’s possible that it’s been disconnected to provide 12V to the fridge with the engine off.

That’s all guesswork but as there is a chance the wiring has been modified (why would they fit a component and not connect it?) I’d start at the beginning and check for 12V on the fridge connector with the engine running and not.

Brod
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Re: fridge

Post by luxorone on Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:03 pm

thanks for the info Brod, 
I have a 240V element arriving tomorrow.
ill keep you updated.


Ah I see, the panel isn't a Zig panel it's a Lab-Craft panel

I'm guessing I should not also have a zig panel then?
(240v mains/ 12v van switch, touring on site switches etc.) 
(I cant seem to find one) 
all I have found is EHU trip switches, and what looks like a transformer for the EHU 


The black block looks very much like a relay (can’t think what else it would be), are you sure there isn't a fourth connection hidden behind the PCB? 

I'm pretty sure not, but ill take it off again tomorrow and double check


Looking at the front of the panel it looks as if the right hand switch is labelled "Refrigeration

yes that is correct, the other switch is the water pump (and it works ok)


That’s all guesswork but as there is a chance the wiring has been modified (why would they fit a component and not connect it?)

these are not my photos, but mine is exactly the same so I'm guessing the black block (relay?) was there from new.
and not fitted by a previous owner of my van.

any idea what the 4 fuses are for (on the right of the unit)
the fridge and water pump already have there own fuses.

the mains on and battery on charge light does not light up when 240v hook up is fitted,
but when you push the water check button (on left) the battery condition shows fully charged when 240v is connected, (normal condition when 240v not connected)
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Re: fridge

Post by Peter Brown on Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:52 am

Not necessarily a problem, but the installation in the photos was not made by AS - leather cloth instead of matching carpet trim, etc.

Has the fridge ever been fully functional since you have had the van? ie at we looking for a fault or a bespoke installation?

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Re: fridge

Post by brodco on Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:23 pm

Hi wave 

brodco wrote:Ah I see, the panel isn't a Zig panel it's a Lab-Craft panel
luxorone wrote:I'm guessing I should not also have a zig panel then?
(240v mains/ 12v van switch, touring on site switches etc.)
(I cant seem to find one)
all I have found is EHU trip switches, and what looks like a transformer for the EHU
 
Sounds right, You’ll only have one control panel. AS used Zig products throughout the 90s and changed makes in the early 2000s (from the info on the forum). The Lab-Craft panel will do the same job. The transformer / power supply is an independent unit so you may have a Zig or any other make fitted. Hopefully there is an RCD somewhere as well as the two trips shown in the picture. If not it’s well worth fitting one for safety’s sake
 
brodco wrote:The black block looks very much like a relay (can’t think what else it would be), are you sure there isn't a fourth connection hidden behind the PCB?
luxorone wrote:I'm pretty sure not, but ill take it off again tomorrow and double check
You have the advantage that you can actually see the real thing but I just can’t think what else could be that shape. I suppose it just could be something like a small potted transformer to drive the mains on light but that really is total speculation and seems very unlikely. Is there any writing on it? Perhaps remove it and post a good picture.
 
luxorone wrote:any idea what the 4 fuses are for (on the right of the unit)
the fridge and water pump already have there own fuses.
 
Not really, the panel will come with a number of fuse holders that may or may not be used. It will depend on what you have fitted, probably one for the lights, one for heater (if fitted) and a couple left for anything else.
 
luxorone wrote: the mains on and battery on charge light does not light up when 240v hook up is fitted,
but when you push the water check button (on left) the battery condition shows fully charged when 240v is connected, (normal condition when 240v not connected)
 
Can’t be absolutely sure about your wiring but on a Zig the battery charged light normally just monitors the 12V whether it’s from the battery or EHU. On EHU it’s always green and on battery it’s green if the battery is charged  and red if it’s flat. A quick way to check if the 12V supply from EHU is working is to disconnect the battery and see if the lights still work.
 
Better to concentrate on and fix one thing at a time though.
 
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Re: fridge

Post by luxorone on Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:31 pm

Has the fridge ever been fully functional since you have had the van? ie at we looking for a fault or a bespoke installation?
no its never worked at all, but I have only owned the van for a couple of weeks.
the old owner said the fridge didn't work, but I thought it was at least worth trying to fix it before getting a new or s/h one


Not necessarily a problem, but the installation in the photos was not made by AS - leather cloth instead of matching carpet trim, etc.
they are not my photo's, but its the same units as I have.

well the fridge came out today.
first look gave the impression of very good condition, hardly a rust spot in site.
until the flue was taken apart to get at the 240v element.
the element is rusted in solid.
trying to free it with WD40.
ill leave it over night and see what happens.
but its starting to look like a new or s/h fridge will be needed.
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Re: fridge

Post by brodco on Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:26 am

Hi  wave

luxorone wrote:
Has the fridge ever been fully functional since you have had the van? ie at we looking for a fault or a bespoke installation?
no its never worked at all, but I have only owned the van for a couple of weeks. ?
All the more reason to get one of the three power sources working to check the cooling unit works. If that’s OK it should be fixable.
luxorone wrote:its starting to look like a new or s/h fridge will be needed.
Wash your mouth out with soap!! hugegrins  hugegrins  hugegrins
luxorone wrote:element is rusted in solid.
trying to free it with WD40. ?
You could try a little heat  or cold. Personally I’ve had more success using freezer than heat:

https://www.maplin.co.uk/p/servisol-freezer-spray-200ml-re77j

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Re: fridge

Post by meanchris on Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:04 am

I did one on my pal's caravan fridge that was rusted in, we ended up using a chisel and a temperature controlled heat gun set to 300C, that's part of his commercial floor laying kit.

Boy was that one rusted in well. oh_blast!

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Re: fridge

Post by Alf on Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:13 pm

Peter Brown wrote:Not necessarily a problem, but the installation in the photos was not made by AS - leather cloth instead of matching carpet trim, etc.

Has the fridge ever been fully functional since you have had the van?  ie at we looking for a fault or a bespoke installation?
I had a Talbot CXL and a SL that had these labcraft control panels factory fitted this was before Zig came along.

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Re: fridge

Post by luxorone Yesterday at 6:53 pm

my Dometic model number RM4213s does not seem to work.
12v nothing, no light on the 12v on/off switch, (engine running and turned on at the zig unit, zig fuses all ok)

well the mystery deepens...
with the fridge out, I connected it to a battery (with a 10 amp fuse in line) using 3.4 mm 17 amp auto wire
and the 12v on/off switch lights up when turned on
the wire did get hot so I disconnected it.
but it was jury rigged as I didn't have a spade connector so that might be the reason.
any ideas please?
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Re: fridge

Post by meanchris Yesterday at 9:14 pm

If the wire got hot at the end where you made the temporary 'jury rig' connection, that might explain why.

If it got hot all the way along the wire then that points to high current, but unlikely with a 10A fuse and 17A wire.

The 12V fridge element is probably 120W, so 10A at 12V.

Have you managed to remove/replace the rusted 230V element?

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Re: fridge

Post by luxorone Today at 12:23 am

If the wire got hot at the end where you made the temporary 'jury rig' connection, that might explain why.

If it got hot all the way along the wire then that points to high current, but unlikely with a 10A fuse and 17A wire.

The 12V fridge element is probably 120W, so 10A at 12V.

Have you managed to remove/replace the rusted 230V element?

it was hot all along the wire, but I'm not sure if it was because of the jury rig or not.
ill look into it some more tomorrow when I can get some more spade connectors.
as for the element, its still stuck,
I think maybe its time to call it a day on getting it out and service the gas side and just run it on that till I can get a new or s/h fridge
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