Harmony improvements for 2018

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Harmony improvements for 2018

Post by newterry on Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:35 pm

Hi,
Having completed a successful tour of SW Cork this year I'm heading to Skye and Arran in 2018.

The Harmony is booked into MW Autos Wisbech (as per advice on this forum) for a gearbox rebuild in late October.

However, I'll need to replace the 7 year old tyres beforehand.

Q1. Which tyres will give me a more comfortable ride (max weight 2800kg) ?

Q2. My original 20 year old rims are very shabby- should I replace with steel or alloy for a more comfortable ride ?

All suggestions welcome.

Terry
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Re: Harmony improvements for 2018

Post by mikethebike on Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:02 pm

Hi better ride with 1)correct tyre pressures,not over inflated. 2)Not low profile tyres.3) 
Rims can be repainted.

Micky
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Re: Harmony improvements for 2018

Post by peugeotboxer on Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:04 pm

Hi Terry

Enjoyed your recent travel write up.

PB

ps. just paint the rims!
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Re: Harmony improvements for 2018

Post by newterry on Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:13 pm

Hi PB,
Yes, seems like a good idea.
Terry
ps Hoping to get to Cheddar 9th &10th September for the Crosville Transport Rally at Weston-S-Mare Helicopter Museum on Sunday 10th.
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Re: Harmony improvements for 2018

Post by newterry on Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:14 pm

Sorry PB,
Thanks for your kind comments about the travel write up.
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Re: Harmony improvements for 2018

Post by Bartfarst on Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:57 pm

newterry wrote:Hi,
Having completed a successful tour of SW Cork this year I'm heading to Skye and Arran in 2018.

The Harmony is booked into MW Autos Wisbech (as per advice on this forum) for a gearbox rebuild in late October.

However, I'll need to replace the 7 year old tyres beforehand.

Q1. Which tyres will give me a more comfortable ride (max weight 2800kg) ?

Q2. My original 20 year old rims are very shabby- should I replace with steel or alloy for a more comfortable ride ?

All suggestions welcome.

Terry

Terry,

You may be changing your seven year old tyres 'cause they're low on remaining tread, however in case you're doing it on the basis of their age, here's my tuppence-worth!

There have been many and varied views expressed about aging tyres on this forum and, as you might guess, I'm probably at one extreme end. I admit that I may be proven wrong, but my youngest tyres (Conti Vanco 8s on the front) are 10 years old, and the Kleber and Bridgestone on the rear are appreciably older still. There is some minor cracking at the root of the tread cleats of the rear tyres but, other than that, they seem fine. Either way they got a thumbs-up from the MOT man last week who advised me that providing any cracking didn't reach the reinforcement then they were deemed OK. I'm not advising that you all do the same as me - it's everyone's own decision. I just feel that compared with the white delivery van/builders van usage these tyres are designed for, they have a real cushy life on a camper. In my opinion, a quality branded tyre should last appreciably longer than the conservative guidance often offered by tyre companies in whose interest it is to encourage exchange of aging tyres on the basis of safety: something which can seldom be argued against. I hope someone can show my the quantified increased risk of tyre failure against age as that might persuade me to change, literally! That said the fronts are getting worn and need to be swapped soon, probably at the start of next season, but the treads on the rears are still good. Each to their own.

Regarding your shabby steel rims, I doubt neither steel nor alloy wheels will make a noticeable difference to ride. The only parameter affected by wheel type is unspring mass of the suspension system which will affect road holding performance of a lightweight sports car, but is unlikely to have any effect of consequence on a loaded light commercial vehicle such as ours. However of significant benefit to ride and handling, and here I'm speaking from recent experience with my 1995 Harmony, was replacement of the front shock absorbers. Accepting that the offside strut had been weeping oil for a few years, the effect of new shocks has been transformatory. Not knowing how many miles your Harmony has done - mine had done 85,000 miles - I assume by age alone, yours could equally benefit? I assume you have already exchanged your rear shocks? In my experience these last appreciably shorter time and I'm now on my third set, contemplating a fourth. Back to the wheels though: as and when I next change my tyres, I have a spare set of steel wheels which I'm going to have shot blasted and painted or powder coated metallic silver to restore their appearance.

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Re: Harmony improvements for 2018

Post by Bartfarst on Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:28 pm

Just one further point about tyres on a Harmony.

We had our Harmony from new in 1995 and it came ex-factory with 195/70x15 'Light Van' tyres with a 97S load/speed rating. After a few years we replaced like with like on the front but retained the slow wearing original tyres on the rear. Then within a short period of time during the heat of summer, one of the rears 'went square' on the M6 with the other going the same way on that awful concrete section road out of Belgium and into Monschau in Germany which I bet some of you know. FYI the first indication of tyre failure which I noticed was the toilet door rattling with increased vigour at a road speed-related frequency. In both cases I was encouraged to replace the OE specified tyres with 8ply tyres having the more widely available 104/102R rating. In fact the guys in Germany were incredulous as to why the 97S tyres had been specified. Soon afterwards, having abandoned the van in Germany one year with no brakes, it returned home with bent steering track rods, presumably having been strapped down to a transporter by them rather than over the wheels. So on the next trip to France I inadvertently scrubbed the inner edges of the fronts down to the steel reinforcing. After a very professional tracking job at the French equivalent of ATS, I then had 8 ply tyres on the front too, and I've used them thereafter with no problems at all.

As far as I can see, 104 rating is now virtually universal but I have seen the lower load rated tyre still available from one outlet. I mention all this as, if your Harmony is still fitted with the specified 97S tyres then, yes, I'd swap them for 8 ply items tomorrow!

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Re: Harmony improvements for 2018

Post by newterry on Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:07 am

Bartfast,
Thanks for the comprehensive advice which is very much appreciated.
I've just booked the Harmony in for it's annual major service in October and told the garage to change the shocks and springs if there is a mere hint of an issue especially as I've been feeling the potholes more since coming back from Ireland.
Although we were the original owners from new in 1999 there were 5 other owners before we were re-united with her in 2011 so although there is a service history there's no record of suspension parts being replaced including me.
Based on your experience I'll tell the garage to replace the shocks regardless. As we both have Harmony's, are there any preferred choice of shocks, Monroe's perhaps ?
There is 65,000 miles on the clock and the tyres are Uni-Royal Rain Max,10,000 miles old which up to last year had little use, but I take your point about lack of any visual signs of cracking. Given my change in personal circumstances I've racked up around 4000 miles over the last 9 months. Is there a specific code when looking for 8ply, mine are standard 195/70 97R's, I'm a bit of a novice on tyre codes. E-Tyres usually do any tyre changes at my home.
I've heard that Michelin Agilis can improve ride but the proof of the pudding and all that !
My 'tame' bodyshop man would probably do the rims, he's got to do the windscreen pillars anyway early in the new year (long term hidden leaky screen) when the Harmony is not in so much use.
Thanks for taking the time to pass on this info, it's been a great help so far, additional info on 8 ply tyre codes and shocks brands would be appreciated.
Cheers
Terry
(Note to Admin- I can only do 'new topic' on Edge not Chrome since the Photobucket disruption)
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Re: Harmony improvements for 2018

Post by Bartfarst on Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:48 am

Terry,

Regarding tyre codes, I don't know all the ins and outs I'm afraid. However I think that 8 ply is implicit in the 104/102 rating. Incidentally the 'twin' rating I keep referring to relates to the load rating when used as a pair of wheels (104) and as a single wheel (102). There are also other types of tyre specifically for campervans - long life, tolerant of months not turning a wheel, or more comfortable ride, I know not which benefits they espouse - but, again, I'm satisfied with 8 ply and feel no need to seek an embellishment which I probably wouldn't notice or appreciate. Let's face it they're not likely to be cheaper than your regular van tyres are they?

So you appear to have the 97 load rating of a light van tyre? Well, as I indicated, I would not give them the time of day having lost two from four, both on the heavier rear of the vehicle did I say?

Another issue is tyre pressures: the pressure recommended by Peugeot as new was 43 psi all round. However, I always thought this too low, and tyre manufacturer's recommended pressures for the 104/102 tyres under the max loads of the Harmony (1.7t rear axle/1.0t front axle) are generally higher and approach 60 psi. I can't say whether this handles better or worse, but it all feels much more right to me and again in years using 8 ply tyres, the wear has been nice and even.

As for tyre brands, my first choice is always Continental. My next will likely be Contivan 200, not on the basis of any deep research, just that they should have the best design, best rubber and best construction. When a Saturday schoolboy tyre fitter in the 1970s the best brands of tyres were also generally the easiest to balance and generally they stayed balanced for longer too. Little known fact told me by a man who made his career out of tyres: the principal benefit of expensive tyres is that the spring rate of the side wall is usually more consistent around the tyre than cheaper options, and this gives a more consistent ride and road holding. Continental were always OE fit on Mercedes so, being a true Germanophile that's always influenced my choice. So there you go: brain dump on tyres is over!

As for the front shocks, again I fitted the best I could find, namely Sachs Boge (German again you see!) I referenced their part number for a Mk2 Boxer in a post from earlier this year: if you search for Sachs you should find it. Not sure if it's the same one for mk1. The rears I had were Japanese KYB then some other used OE off my donor van. Again I'm going for Sachs Boge again next time. As and when your mechanic changes your front shocks, it may be worthwhile also checking or changing the upper strut top bearing. These were prone to wear and failure on the early Boxers, and mine were never the same after three weeks in Iceland! I have Mk2 struts (from the donor van) which feature a large integral rubber bush compared with the Mk1 Boxer, presumably to reduce road noise transmission. I'm not sure whether they're interchangeable but I suspect they are. They certainly fit the body fine but I'd have to check whether Mk1 and Mk2 springs were interchangeable too.

Hope this helps.

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Re: Harmony improvements for 2018

Post by newterry on Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:44 am

Barfarst,
Thank you for this comprehensive information, replacing the top strut bearings on any new shocks at the same time is a good call.
Should I think about replacing the rear springs as well or are they more robust ?
I'll monitor the tyres and maybe delay the change if there's no evidence of cracking and a decent tread depth, the MOT in October will help as will the wheels off service at the same time. I'll get the rims repainted at the same time as the windscreen pillars are refurbished.

Thanks again for your time and consideration.
Terry
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Re: Harmony improvements for 2018

Post by boxerman on Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:02 am

Hi Terry,
While you are changing the top bearings on your struts, check the upper spring caps. One of mine had rusted through, would have been an MOT failure.
MOT guy said that it was not something an inexperienced tester would spot.

Frank
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Re: Harmony improvements for 2018

Post by Bartfarst on Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:05 am

Terry,

OK on delaying changing your tyres. Bear in mind though that the two 'light van' tyres that went square were at most 5 years old and, as far as I could tell, looked in great condition.

Ah rear springs: now there's a thing! I always believed that, as supplied, the Mk1 270S Boxer springs were not up to the task. As purchased, my Harmony used to always adopt a 'tail low' attitude, even when unladen, accepting that, in van terms, there's no such thing as an unladen campervan. Fitting air springs made a huge difference however, and they've been on ever since, just with about 15 - 20psi in them.

The comparable Mk2 244 had 100kg extra carrying capacity on the rear axle and therefore I assume that the later springs were higher rated. I have a pair from my Mk2 donor van which I'm considering putting on as the rear end ride is pretty poor and I suspect the springs might have sagged over time. I asked the MOT guy whether they did sag: he said early ones did but later ones didn't, but I never got to the bottom of whether he was referring to Talbot vans as opposed to Boxers. There's a place in Birmingham on eBay which specialises in van rear leaf springs: I've asked them various questions to which they have failed to reply, but rear springs are an area I intend to investigate as part of my much delayed overhaul of the Harmony.

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Re: Harmony improvements for 2018

Post by newterry on Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:07 am

Frank
Thanks for the info, I'll make sure that's part of the replacement spec. I've got access to the Peugeot Service Box for my specific vin chassis so I can print off diagrams and part numbers to wave under their noses.
Terry
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Re: Harmony improvements for 2018

Post by Bartfarst on Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:11 am

boxerman wrote:Hi Terry,
While you are changing the top bearings on your struts, check the upper spring caps. One of mine had rusted through, would have been an MOT failure.
MOT guy said that it was not something an inexperienced tester would spot.

Frank
Frank,

I'm assuming you're referring to the bodywork here onto which the top of the strut bears?

Mine was pretty sound to be honest: surprising as I've never done any preventative Waxoyl or other stuff right from new. Perhaps it's because I never take it out in winter.

Can see how an inexperienced MOT guy would miss it though. Got to be a contortionist to get your head far enough up there!

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Re: Harmony improvements for 2018

Post by newterry on Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:16 am

Bartfast
As you can see in my reply to Frank I've seen there are 2 types of springs for my vin. no. the second one being 'camping car'.
According to my build notes the the suspension on my van is 'normal' so replacement with 'camping car' might make a difference.
I'll print off all the diagrams and part numbers and have a conversation with the garage about a replacement strategy.
I don't mind paying for premium replacement parts as well as the upcoming gearbox rebuild as the Harmony will be with for life and is key to pursuing my 'new' life on the road.
Terry
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Re: Harmony improvements for 2018

Post by Bartfarst on Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:23 am

Terry,

Yes, I've seen various references to 'Camping car' options in suspension parts. I think rear shocks are available too with this appellation. Can't help thinking that they'll be hard to find and expensive but, hey, a campervan is for life!

I'd love to know how they differ though before taking that option.

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Re: Harmony improvements for 2018

Post by newterry on Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:44 am

Bartfast
I've just printed the rear suspension diagrams and although they look identical there are different part numbers for the 2 cross members and rebound block. The standard block is 'Haut 80' and the camping car 'Haut 130'.

If you fancy a bit of bedtime reading send me a pm and I'll scan them in and send them over. I guess it's no good me going in on your vin. number for the your original build spec as you've changed quite a bit of kit anyway.

Terry
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Re: Harmony improvements for 2018

Post by boxerman on Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:47 am

Bartfarst wrote:

I'm assuming you're referring to the bodywork here onto which the top of the strut bears?

Can see how an inexperienced MOT guy would miss it though. Got to be a contortionist to get your head far enough up there!

Bartfarst
No Stuart, the spring cap on the strut itself. Part no 5031-45 Like this one

Frank
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Re: Harmony improvements for 2018

Post by Bartfarst on Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:53 am

Got yah Frank!

I'm struggling to remember what mine looked like when I changed them and, based upon your comment, I wish I'd paid closer attention.

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Re: Harmony improvements for 2018

Post by Bartfarst on Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:03 pm

newterry wrote:Bartfast
I've just printed the rear suspension diagrams and although they look identical there are different part numbers for the 2 cross members and rebound block. The standard block is 'Haut 80' and the camping car 'Haut 130'.

Terry
As it happens, the rear suspension of my van is pretty much unchanged  - the only major bit apart from the bodyshell that is - so I can put the original VIN into Servicebox and have a peek: thanks for the info. FYI the condition of the rear spring hangers and the springs themselves from the 2005 donor van was much worse when removed in 2011 than the 1995 Boxer. Again, perhaps the effect of winter use, or economies in paintwork/protection.

Haut in German means skin - can't see that as being relevant, and there are no translations in Spanish or Italian. However Haut in French appears to translate to 'top', 'high' or 'tall'. If it were 'height' then it would perhaps make more sense. This does perhaps suggest that the camping car option might ride higher than the van by design, perhaps to counteract the fact that campers are never unladen, as discussed earlier. Interesting!



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Re: Harmony improvements for 2018

Post by newterry on Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:14 pm

That must be the height of what we call the bump stops which on my Harmony have been replaced by Air-ride bags.
I think I'll focus on the shocks and only replace the springs if they're definitely duff.
I assume for the Service Box you're already a user, if not you'll need to set yourself up as a 'repairer' and an address.
How about 'Trigger's Broom Repairs' !!

Terry :-) Since Photobucketgate I can't get access to emoticons !
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Re: Harmony improvements for 2018

Post by Bartfarst on Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:20 pm

Sorry Terry, I missed that it was referring to the bump stops - height of the bumps stops in mm? If so then mine would have been riding on them continually!

Yes, the old van is a bit like Trigger's Broom, having metaphorically had five handles and three heads!

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Re: Harmony improvements for 2018

Post by Redwink on Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:45 am

I vaguely remember on my first tyre change at 8 years, I wanted them back to use when standing the van over over the winter. They would not let me have them, told me they looked not to good on the inside and around the beading. The van did spend a lot of time standing and not being used. Although it passed the mot quite recently, but after a puncture, I have decided to change them all again. Sourcing the bolt in valves took a bit of time as not many tyre fitters stock them. I will ask for the tyres back again along with the existing bolt in valves. Not sure if it makes any difference, but I always use covers on the wheels.
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Re: Harmony improvements for 2018

Post by newterry on Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:42 am

Hi Redwink,
My Harmony was standing for long periods up until my persoanl circumstances changed last year and they're now getting a proper work-out. I'll get a condition report on my tyres when the Harmony goes in for it's service and MOT in October, particularly the nearside front as it's in direct sunlight* most of the day, and base any decision on that. (* when it does shine !)

Has anyone converted the MK1 Boxer mirrors to electric ?? There's a blanking plate on the door arm rest which suggests it's a possibility.
All advice welcome as usual, Barfast (Stuart) whadya think ?
Terry
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Re: Harmony improvements for 2018

Post by Bartfarst on Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:04 pm

Terry,

Yes, I did change to electric mirrors, but only as part of the last stage my Mk1 Petrol to Mk2 HDi conversion: documented in another post which I currently can't locate.

I don't know whether electric mirrors were a common option on the Mk1, my suspicion being that the blanking plates of which you speak are primarily for the electric window option which, again, I suspect is rare as the proverbial 'hen's teeth'.

Shouldn't be too difficult bodging Mk2 wiring onto a Mk1 loom providing the circuits are appropriately protected. I think electric windows have some current limiting function somewhere in circuit (and I don't mean a fuse) and mirror motors might require the same: just don't know.

BTW what load/speed rating of tyres do you have on your Harmony?

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