12v problems when hooked up

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Re: 12v problems when hooked up

Post by brodco on Thu May 04, 2017 10:51 am

Hi wave
inspiredron wrote: I think that my next step would be to disconnect the fridge from 12V (it does not have an internal light does it?) and then see if your problem has gone away.
Good thinking but the fridge was disconnected before the last test.
inspiredron wrote:If the problem remains then  - well ??????? Back to square 1 which might be a short on the water gauge or its wiring.
I know what you mean but I think we are still well away from square 1. After all we know the problem is down that piece of wire connected to the fuse.
meanchris wrote:The gas igniter has very low current draw, I seem to remember reading that it can be powered with a 9V battery in an emergency.
It's either a pretty obscure fault or something else has also been connected to that fuse circuit as well as the two original loads.
I can't see that the water level sensor (though I don't know what type it will be on an '88 van) can draw 4 amps plus.
I agree. here is a generic diagram from 1989 here that shows an electric igniter connected to the control panel. It may not be the same fridge now but that’s probably why the fuse is marked “Fridge” but as above the fridge is now completely disconnected.

http://autosleeper.vwt25camper.info/1989AutosleeperWiringDiagramZIG_MC-2000WM.pdf

I think it would be sensible to check that all the 12V equipment works with the fuse out (apart from the water gauge). If anything doesn’t that’s a clue.

The question now is what Stuart wants to do next?

We can carry on solving he current problem which will probably mean looking behind the control panel to see of there are any obvious bodges and then disconnecting “stuff”.

or

We can leave that fault until later, reconnect the Zig PSU and test it so that the van is in a usable condition. The fridge of course must be left completely disconnected from 12V until we work out how to wire it correctly.

or 

Somebody else may come up with a better idea.

Brod
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Re: 12v problems when hooked up

Post by stuart90 on Thu May 04, 2017 11:53 am

Hi Brod, not sure if you saw my earlier post, the fridge is a RM212F with manual Piezo crystal lighting so no 12v connection.
I have tried all the 12v lighting etc, it all works except water gauge but a red light on the zig control panel denoting 12v on does not light, don't know if that helps.
As I said before, we don't use the fridge 12v or water gauge so would be happy to leave out the fuse. Any suggestions for a next step as it seems we are making progress. You mention obvious bodges, would that be more than one wire per connection? Would it help if I posted a photo?
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Re: 12v problems when hooked up

Post by brodco on Thu May 04, 2017 2:45 pm

Hi  wave

stuart90 wrote:Hi Brod, not sure if you saw my earlier post, the fridge is a RM212F with manual Piezo crystal lighting so no 12v connection.

I did. In my last post I added a link to an AS circuit for around the same time and it had a connection for a fridge igniter so I think that’s why it says “Fridge”. Obviously not needed now though.

stuart90 wrote:
I have tried all the 12v lighting etc, it all works except water gauge but a red light on the zig control panel denoting 12v on does not light, don't know if that helps.

Which light are we talking about exactly, haven’t got an MC2000 myself but from the pictures on the web it doesn’t seem to have a 12V on light. I suspect you are looking at the battery indicator light. There is a very useful diagram here:

https://siradventure.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/zig-mc-2000-full-wiring.jpg

It suggests that the battery indicator circuit is connected to the same point as the water level gauge (though it’s not quite clear how) but the fact that it doesn’t light would make sense. The good news is that there doesn't seem to be anything crucial connected to that point.

stuart90 wrote:As I said before, we don't use the fridge 12v or water gauge so would be happy to leave out the fuse.

The fridge isn’t relevant in this case because if you do decide to rewire it you probably won’t use the control panel anyway. There’s no reason why you shouldn’t use the fridge. It just needs wiring properly.

stuart90 wrote:Any suggestions for a next step as it seems we are making progress. You mention obvious bodges, would that be more than one wire per connection? Would it help if I posted a photo?

I did mention possible next steps at the end of my last post. The choice is to fix the phantom 4A now or leave the fuse out and fix it later (or not as is your wish) hugegrins and carry on and get rest of the van serviceable

All being well (unless there is something else waiting to bite) we can connect the Zig up and test that. I suspect it’s actually OK, it only supplies 7.5A anyway so if you have 4A or so being taken permanently you only have 3.5 play with. Switch anything else on in the van and you have virtually nothing left.

As for looking for a bodge there’s no real definition. It really means anything that doesn’t look right, such as extra connecting blocks, badly fitted wires or the dreaded insulating tape. A picture would be a good idea. Can’t promise it will show anything but it can’t do any harm.

I think we’re pretty nearly there. The symptoms were very confusing at the start but it all makes sense now. allthumbz

Brod
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Re: 12v problems when hooked up

Post by stuart90 on Thu May 04, 2017 3:13 pm

I was a bit slow on the uptake, presumably the original fridge had the 12v lighter connection and yes you are right the 12v light is for fridge and that's why its out but I always assumed it was 12v/fridge bacause without that switch on there is no 12v in the van, is this significant?
(And yes I know you should not assume as it makes an * Inappropriate Word */u/me).
Should I cannect the 230v to the fridge and what test when hooked up?
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Re: 12v problems when hooked up

Post by brodco on Thu May 04, 2017 5:18 pm

Hi   wave  

stuart90 wrote:I was a bit slow on the uptake, presumably the original fridge had the 12v lighter connection and yes you are right the 12v light is for fridge and that's why its out but I always assumed it was 12v/fridge bacause without that switch on there is no 12v in the van, is this significant?

stuart90 wrote:(And yes I know you should not assume as it makes an * Inappropriate Word */u/me).Should I cannect the 230v to the fridge and what test when hooked up?
Leave the fridge off for now.

My “get out of jail card “ I haven’t seen your actual system so I’m going on info from the web but the circuit is very similar to mine so I’m confident it’s correct (well mostly anyway).

The switch switches the 12V on in the van. 12V comes from the leisure battery into the switch and when the switch is “on” it switches 12V to all the fuses, each fuse of course then supplies its own circuit. The switch has nothing to do with the fridge other than providing a supply to the (defunct) igniter via the fuse you have removed.

The lower “Fridge” light on the control panel is connected to the fridge 12V (on the relay you haven’t found yet). It comes in from the fridge and doesn’t go anywhere else so as the fridge is disconnected anyway it doesn’t matter if it’s on or off. We’ll worry about it if you decide to reconnect the fridge 12V.

I think my next step would be to double check that the current draw is now normal.

As before connect the meter in the negative battery lead.

Switch everything off in the van.

Switch the 12V off with the switch on on the control panel – check that the meter reads 0A.

Switch the 12V on with the switch on the control panel – check that it reads close to 0A (don’t worry about a few milliamps).

Switch one of the lights on (say a double tube fluorescent) that’s 2 x 8W tubes plus a bit for the inverter, so say 20W which should give very roughly 1.5A.

If all’s Ok you can re-connect the Zig and hookup. The battery voltage should go up to 13.8V, possibly over a period of time, and the meter (if still connected) should show – (minus) “something” Amps indicating that he battery is charging. You don't really need to leave the meter connected. If the voltage rises you know the battery is charging.

If that doesn’t happen re-post with the results.

Then you can switch on the fridge and check it has no effect on the 12V system.

From the picture you posted earlier I’d check and tidy up the Zig power supply wiring if only for safety's sake. Obviously be careful not to touch the mains supply (I don’t know how it’s connected to the DCU-3).

Brod
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Re: 12v problems when hooked up

Post by stuart90 on Fri May 05, 2017 10:37 am

Hi Brod, the tests went well. 1.7 amp with 21w load. Hookup .14 and hookup + 12v on .14
The battery is charged to 13.64 at present. I connected the fridge to 230v and switched on plus 12v shows no increase in amps big thumbs up
The picture of the back of the zig control is not very clear but it looked tidy with no obvious bodging or tape. The picture which I thought was a relay is situated behind the zig control. I initially removed a wire from that to disconnect the 12v.

Does this mean we have won?
My wife is so impressed that I haven't blown my self or the camper up she wounders if it would be within my capabilities to connect 12v to the fridge? scratch head
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Re: 12v problems when hooked up

Post by brodco on Tue May 09, 2017 1:08 pm

Hi  wave 

Sorry about the late reply, I’ve not been around for a bit.
stuart90 wrote:Hi Brod, the tests went well. 1.7 amp with 21w load. Hookup .14 and hookup + 12v on .14 Does this mean we have won?
More or less I think. I suppose it depends on how far you want to go. The 0.14 seems a bit high though, was it not 0 last time? 
stuart90 wrote:The bottom left of 6 fuses gave a zero reading when removed.
0.14A a bit over 3Ah a day. Nothing to do with the habitation electrics though because it’s there when they are switched off as well. You may not notice it if you’re moving around a lot but it’ll reduce the time you can spend parked and off hookup. Mine’s 0.04 and that is the heater thermostat which is powered all the time.

Do you want to continue and find the original problem?

If you are careful you can connect the meter on amps across the empty fuse connector to save you disconnecting the leisure battery every time you test anything.



If you do want to continue to find the excess current problem you’ll need to follow the wire from the fuse you’ve taken out. From the picture it looks like a white wire and there are two white wires but I can only see where one goes. If it’s the obvious one in the picture it looks to go to three red wires. You could disconnect these one at a time to see which one the fault lies on. If that’s not the wire you should still be able to trace where the one connected to the fuse goes to. 



I notice one of the red wires is bent over to the next connector. That’s normally OK but is there any chance that the wires have been pushed together and the insulation damaged?



I assume “yep at it again” that the PCB in the picture is for the water gauge or possibly the battery level monitor. Either way that extra bit of chock block doesn’t look original (although it does look like the same type as AS used for the main connector so I’m not sure). Worth disconnecting and checking anyway.


The relay is interesting is a “what is it doing there” sort of way. It may be the illusive fridge relay.
If so no wonder you couldn’t find it. Can you see where the red wires go and does the red wire look the same as the one that was connected to the fridge.?

stuart90 wrote:My wife is so impressed that I haven't blown my self or the camper up she wounders if it would be within my capabilities to connect 12v to the fridge? scratch head
hugegrins 

That’s up to you but there are enough techie types on the forum to guide you through it. You would need to plan it so that you knew exactly what you were going to do before you start.

e.g. 

Find a route for the wire that doesn’t involve going past a hot area or sharp edges (perhaps attached to an existing loom).

Decide where you could mount a fuse holder (very close to the battery) and the relay. You may find the remnants of the original installation that you could use.

You probably won’t have the tools to hand either, a decent pair of crimpers will cost at least the price of an hours labour if you were to get a professional to do it.

Others will probably chip in with their thoughts.

Brod
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Re: 12v problems when hooked up

Post by stuart90 on Tue May 09, 2017 3:06 pm

Hi Brod, not sure how I got a reading of 0.14 previously but I just checked and the reading is 0.05 and the leisure battery is charged to 14.20. I am happy to leave it at that. allthumbz
Thank you very much for your time, patience and expertise and to everyone else who helped me. thanksverymuch 
Kind regards Stuart
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Re: 12v problems when hooked up

Post by brodco on Tue May 09, 2017 7:20 pm

Hi  wave

stuart90 wrote:Thank you very much for your time, patience and expertise and to everyone else who helped me. thanksverymuch 

Good forum this init!! up!
One last word, if the 14.2V is after the engine has been running it's spot on. If it's on the Zig the output is high (should be 13.8).

Brod
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Re: 12v problems when hooked up

Post by meanchris on Wed May 10, 2017 10:58 am

brodco wrote:
One last word, if the 14.2V is after the engine has been running it's spot on. If it's on the Zig the output is high (should be 13.8).

Brod

Oi! Nobody likes a smartarse! hugegrins

(We do like you a lot though actually) up! up! up!

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Re: 12v problems when hooked up

Post by stuart90 on Wed May 10, 2017 11:49 am

Hi all wave to celibrate I'm washing the roof of the camper, on our last two day break a fellow camper asked if we were growing anything nice up there hugegrins.
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Re: 12v problems when hooked up

Post by meanchris on Wed May 10, 2017 12:39 pm

Ahhhhhhh up!

That's where the lost power is going, into the hydroponics system on the roof. hugegrins

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Re: 12v problems when hooked up

Post by brodco on Wed May 10, 2017 1:06 pm

Hi wave

meanchris wrote:
brodco wrote:
One last word, if the 14.2V is after the engine has been running it's spot on. If it's on the Zig the output is high (should be 13.8).

Oi! Nobody likes a smartarse! hugegrins

(We do like you a lot though actually) up! up! up!

Ahh reading it back it does sound a bit smug – bad wording sorry.! I didn’t mean it as in “my word’s the last word”.
I meant to say that as Stuart was happy this was the last comment I was going to make in this particular thread; although it turns out it wasn’t because I’ve just made this one. hugegrins

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Re: 12v problems when hooked up

Post by meanchris on Wed May 10, 2017 2:25 pm

Not smug at all, 'twas merely banter on my part for your absolute dedication to completeness and accuracy.
allthumbz

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Re: 12v problems when hooked up

Post by stuart90 on Tue May 16, 2017 2:38 pm

Hi all, back again with a quick question and update. I removed a wire from my zig control and all is fine with zero amps with zig control switched on. I have been working on the fridge problem re 12v. I replaced the relay behind the zig control and now have 12v power to the fridge, to check I had power to the fridge which is a RM212 I disconnected one of the wires to the fridge switch and used a multimeter between the switch and wire. I got a reading of about 9amps with th engine running which appears about right when I looked this up on the internet. My question is this, the wires on the multi meter got hot, is this a problem? or have I wired the relay wrong(I dont think it's wired wrong but open to the possibility).
Kind regards
Stuart
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Re: 12v problems when hooked up

Post by Alf on Tue May 16, 2017 3:03 pm

Your multi meter cables are very light ones no where near big enough to carry 9amps so this should.be ok.
Just check that the fridge only works with the engine running and not when the ignition is turned ON and NO engine running.

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Re: 12v problems when hooked up

Post by brodco on Tue May 16, 2017 3:13 pm

Hi  wave

stuart90 wrote:I got a reading of about 9amps with th engine running which appears about right when I looked this up on the internet. My question is this, the wires on the multi meter got hot, is this a problem? or have I wired the relay wrong(I dont think it's wired wrong but open to the possibility).

Don’t worry about it. If you’re using a cheap (sorry low cost) meter the cables almost certainly aren’t up to the job. OK for the few seconds you need to take the measurement but not for a continuous 10A.

Brod
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Re: 12v problems when hooked up

Post by stuart90 on Tue May 16, 2017 3:55 pm

Many thanks guys for all your help.
Stuart
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Re: 12v problems when hooked up

Post by Peter Brown on Tue May 16, 2017 4:55 pm

stuart90 wrote:I disconnected one of the wires to the fridge switch and used a multimeter between the switch and wire. I got a reading of about 9amps with th engine running which appears about right when I looked this up on the internet. My question is this, the wires on the multi meter got hot, is this a problem?

Just a note of caution, there can be some very high currents in 12v circuits so inserting a budget multimeter in series with them is risky. A newer fridge would have taken between 15 and 20 amps so you would probably have been looking for a new multimeter - at least!

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