Brexit means Brexit

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Post by m8form8 on Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:07 am

I wonder if hard Brexit means Brexit will lead to less restriction on tow bars again, with the rule that only EU approved bars can be fitted to motor homes after 2012 will it allow British Firms like PWS who do exceptionally well built and designed extra strong bars to be legal again. Having spoken to the owner who is pulling his hair out trying to get his bars approved but receiving no answer from European companies, will this become a thing of the past once Brexit happens. confused3 Trying to find some good news about the impending future!  snigger
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Post by Peter Brown on Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:09 pm

BSI produces British Standards, and, as the UK’s National Standards Body, is also responsible for the UK publication, in English, of international and European standards. BSI is obliged to adopt and publish all European Standards as identical British Standards (prefixed BS EN) and to withdraw pre-existing British Standards that are in conflict.[6] However, it has the option to adopt and publish international standards (prefixed BS ISO or BS IEC).

Above is from Wikipedia, what it means is that BSI just process standards, they no longer employ the authors (who now mostly work for the EU). If it was decided to do so, it would take several years to recruit and train new authors so in the short term I see no option other than to buy and use EU standards

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Post by Gromit on Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:10 pm

m8form8 wrote:  . . . will it allow British Firms like PWS who do exceptionally well built and designed extra strong bars to be legal again. Having spoken to the owner who is pulling his hair out trying to get his bars approved but receiving no answer from European companies . . .
Is he still trying to get approval!!! shrugg

I phoned him nearly two years ago when I wanted a towbar, but he couldn't provide one as even at that time he had been trying for ages to get a response.

At least when we dump the EU beauroprats (fully intentional typo! snigger ) he should eventually be able to hammer on the appropriate desk in the UK to get some action.
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Post by Jaytee on Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:17 pm

Gromit wrote:
m8form8 wrote:  . . . will it allow British Firms like PWS who do exceptionally well built and designed extra strong bars to be legal again. Having spoken to the owner who is pulling his hair out trying to get his bars approved but receiving no answer from European companies . . .
Is he still trying to get approval!!! shrugg

I phoned him nearly two years ago when I wanted a towbar, but he couldn't provide one as even at that time he had been trying for ages to get a response.

At least when we dump the EU beauroprats (fully intentional typo! snigger ) he should eventually be able to hammer on the appropriate desk in the UK to get some action.

allthumbz

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Post by -mojo- on Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:36 pm

I seriously doubt that it will make any difference to the standards that we have to adopt. As the rest of Europe is our biggest export market, any UK manufacturer would need to be utterly convinced that they could survive without exporting anything if they suddenly decided to adopt a UK-only standard - so it won't happen like that.
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Post by rogerblack on Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:11 pm

BSI certainly do not exist purely to rubber stamp CEN standards!

There are hundreds, if not thousands, of BSI committees, Working Groups and Technical Sub-Groups which are composed of representatives from industry - manufacturers, trade associations, testing and certification bodies such as British Gas, as well as BSI itself.  The content and wording of all new proposed standards are discussed in minute detail by these groups and committees in each of the member states, with each trying to ensure that its own manufacturers are not disadvantaged.  This is fed back through national umbrella groups and committees who nominate delegates to then represent the country's views at international meetings. As you can imagine, there is much toing and froing throughout the prolonged draft stage, with each proposed amendment having to go back to all member states for further discussion and  modification, until a final version acceptable to all members is reached; a process which can take several years, depending on the complexity of the subject matter.

I have personal experience of this having sat as a manufacturers representative on several technical groups and sub-committees over the years until I took early retirement just five years ago.

Once we leave the EU, it will indeed still be necessary for UK manufacturers who wish to supply products into the EU market to comply with relevant CEN standards, just as if they wish to supply to the USA they have to comply with their relevant standards.  However, it is possible that the UK will then be able to revert to adopting different standards for those who wish to supply purely on the domestic market, which is the case for a lot of small, local producers. This does not mean that these products will be any less safe for example, just that unique requirements for other individual markets need no longer be included. The Germans were particularly adept at including their own peculiarities in CEN standards to try to protect their own indigenous manufacturers; those needn't apply to us.  
One example I remember was for a particular type of Special Steam boiler, for which we took great delight in requesting a particular style of SS logo to be included on their labeling.
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Post by Paramedic on Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:54 pm

On a very much simpler requirement, will we need to proudly display the 'GB' sticker on our vans again? Erm on second thoughts may have to be different signage if Scotland departs. biggrin

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Post by Peter Brown on Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:11 am

rogerblack wrote:BSI certainly do not exist purely to rubber stamp CEN standards!


Roger, I used the word 'process' not 'rubber stamp', a process that you describe in detail in your second paragraph but that does not include authorship.

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Post by rogerblack on Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:26 am

Sorry, Peter, but I take issue with your assertion "what it means is that BSI just process standards, they no longer employ the authors (who now mostly work for the EU)"

My description of the process was deliberately brief so as not to bore the @rse of everyone, however to clarify Standards are developed and maintained by business and industry, consumers, government, innovators and others throughout the EU and where relevant some or even all of the drafting of the standard, depending on content, is done within the UK. This is carried out by groups and committees which include experienced technical authors and editors, some from private companies, some from trade associations and technical consultancies and many of whom are still part of BSI's 9,500+ staff, the majority still based in the UK.  BSI are also one of the organisations who conduct training programmes on authoring standards for folk in industry to assist with this process.

Forgive me if I appear to be a know-all on this Peter but my input is based on years of actual experience, not Wikepedia!  

The BSI website itself has many useful sections which clearly outline the process in further detail, should anyone be interested.

You will no doubt be glad to hear this will be my last input on this rather dry subject as being retired means I now have a life and I have some motorhoming and boating DIY to occupy me for the rest of this currently sunny, clear day.

drinksallround
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Post by brodco on Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:59 pm

Hi  wave

Peter Brown wrote: what it means is that BSI just process standards, they no longer employ the authors (who now mostly work for the EU).

Whatever Wikipedia may have to say that is just not true. The EU don’t write the standards:

rogerblack wrote: Standards are developed and maintained by business and industry, consumers, government, innovators and others throughout the EU and where relevant some or even all of the drafting of the standard, depending on content, is done within the UK. This is carried out by groups and committees which include experienced technical authors and editors, some from private companies, some from trade associations and technical consultancies

Just to add a bit to what Roger has already said all this activity is generally co-ordinated in the UK by the BSI. European standards are agreed and implemented by CEN and CENELEC. These are independent bodies made up of members from most European countries (not only EU countries). As a member of  CEN and CENELEC, far from being side-lined, the BSI is instrumental in drafting and maintaining these standards.

The EU adopts and provides a legal framework for the implementation of some, but not all standards. National standards still exist and often EU standards are modified to take account of conditions in individual countries. The idea that the EU produce the standards and we have to follow them is just not true.

Earlier in the year the BSI held a webinar to explain the effect of Brexit on British and European standards  and the message was “little change” because standards are drafted independently of the EU anyway. There is a recording of the webinar here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qESI91krgzw

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Post by m8form8 on Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:37 pm

Not finding any good news here then!  shrugg Just a disagreement that is as complex about what is a standard as getting an EU approval seems of what is good engineering. I suspect like many, the owner of the firm I sited as an example will just be glad to leave it and retire. But at least this post is evidently in the right place. The Grumpy Old Men's club.  snigger
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Post by Bad Penny on Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:15 pm

That's brexit for you.police
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Post by Paulmold on Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:40 pm

Excerpt from the rules....

Posts debating how we should, or should not run this forum will NOT be tolerated, neither will posts discussing enforcement of such by Admin or moderators. Posts of this nature will be removed without any notice. Also, posts that are deemed damaging to our forum i.e. threatening, offensive, factually inaccurate, slanderous or otherwise portraying our forum in a defamatory or negative manner will be edited or deleted without any warning or explanation.

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Post by rgermain on Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:43 pm

Paulmold wrote:Excerpt from the rules....

Posts debating how we should, or should not run this forum will NOT be tolerated, neither will posts discussing enforcement of such by Admin or moderators. Posts of this nature will be removed without any notice. Also, posts that are deemed damaging to our forum i.e. threatening, offensive, factually inaccurate, slanderous or otherwise portraying our forum in a defamatory or negative manner will be edited or deleted without any warning or explanation.
Good report. Maybe some members should be removed.
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Post by Paulmold on Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:58 pm

Just to clarify , I'm not on Admin.

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Post by harrysp on Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:02 am

Paulmold wrote:Excerpt from the rules....

Posts debating how we should, or should not run this forum will NOT be tolerated, neither will posts discussing enforcement of such by Admin or moderators. Posts of this nature will be removed without any notice. Also, posts that are deemed damaging to our forum i.e. threatening, offensive, factually inaccurate, slanderous or otherwise portraying our forum in a defamatory or negative manner will be edited or deleted without any warning or explanation.
Thank you Paul.

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Post by Gromit on Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:54 am

rgermain wrote:Maybe some members should be removed.
------------
Richard
Hi Richard

Scroll back 6 or 7 posts up the thread.
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Post by mikethebike on Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:39 pm

Paulmold wrote:Excerpt from the rules....

Posts debating how we should, or should not run this forum will NOT be tolerated, neither will posts discussing enforcement of such by Admin or moderators. Posts of this nature will be removed without any notice. Also, posts that are deemed damaging to our forum i.e. threatening, offensive, factually inaccurate, slanderous or otherwise portraying our forum in a defamatory or negative manner will be edited or deleted without any warning or explanation.
Paul,Why do we start an old thread again?

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Post by Paulmold on Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:48 pm

John&Maggie had an entire thread removed due to their comments but they couldn't accept it and decided to resurrect this thread instead and post the same comments and so this thread continued until they broke the rules and  were banned. I'm no longer a mod so the banning was not my doing but I will say I would have done it as well.

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Post by Greyhound on Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:05 am

rgermain wrote:
Paulmold wrote:Excerpt from the rules....

Posts debating how we should, or should not run this forum will NOT be tolerated, neither will posts discussing enforcement of such by Admin or moderators. Posts of this nature will be removed without any notice. Also, posts that are deemed damaging to our forum i.e. threatening, offensive, factually inaccurate, slanderous or otherwise portraying our forum in a defamatory or negative manner will be edited or deleted without any warning or explanation.
Good report. Maybe some members should be removed.
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Richard

Aren't you effectively debating how the forum should be run by suggesting some members should be removed ;)
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Post by Bad Penny on Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:11 pm

Any aggressive attitude to get a point across, should never be tolerated on any forum. We all disagree over different things at times, that's life. So don't blame others for taking down your posts, as the reason was not what you said, but the way you said it.

Before you accuse me of being a Brexiteer, I am a fervent remainer.

Leighton.
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Post by crisp on Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:10 am

Light hearted????
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Post by CC on Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:15 am

Paulmold wrote:John&Maggie had an entire thread removed due to their comments but they couldn't accept it and decided to resurrect this thread instead and post the same comments and so this thread continued until they broke the rules and  were banned. I'm no longer a mod so the banning was not my doing but I will say I would have done it as well.

It was only a temporary 48hr Ban Paul

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Post by Paulmold on Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:30 am

Well they've not been back since 14 June and all their posts have disappeared. Also if you check their profile, it shows 40+ posts but if you click on see all posts there are only 2 shown which are linked to a John, a completely different member, not John&Maggie.

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Post by Tinwheeler on Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:27 am

Are they the same John&Maggie as per ‘aye up me ducks’?  If so, I can’t believe they were featured in the newsletter!
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