Pre heating

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Pre heating

Post by Libraryman2 on Tue Nov 29, 2016 3:04 pm

Hi, I have an old but good kenlowe automatic heating system! I thought I'd push it back into service for the cold winter

I have a 2016 pugeot Broadway with the Euro 5 engine, does anyone know which are the heater pipes on this model....it's been a long time since I worked on engines, the modern ones have changed so much, I'm unsure of the layout, a picture would greatly assist me if possible.

Ray
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Pre Heating

Post by KimF on Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:12 pm

Looks like you have a fairly new van, so I would check that you are not invalidating your engine warranty before you start slicing into the heating pipes, you know what manufacturers are like if they identify you've tampered with a fairly new system. If you have a friendly local mechanic would suggest you take the van in and get them to identify and mark the pipes for you. That would be a fairly simple task for them and only take a couple of minutes.
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Re: Pre heating

Post by Libraryman2 on Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:39 pm

A very good point Kim, I will take care.

Ray
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Re: Pre heating

Post by Pete Taylor on Tue Nov 29, 2016 8:20 pm

Why would you feel the need to have a pre-heater on a Euro 5 engine? Just curious.

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Re: Pre heating

Post by Libraryman2 on Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:37 am

The simple answer is that I'm used to garaging the car, heated seats etc, I like my comforts, the MH sits outside on the drive, plugged into the mains.
Now apart from the fact that I used one for several years when I could not garage the car, it helps with the longevity of the engine, perhaps not in a major way and that aspect would be questioned by many but unti you have used one then it's not always apparent that they are good!

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Re: Pre heating

Post by matchlessman on Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:29 pm

You will find that a new Euro 5 engine will start instantly if the battery is OK. 
I only need to drive 2 or 3 miles to get my engine up to temperature. 
The engines are designed to cover significantly more miles than a motorhome will ever see.
You could put the heating on if you're on hook up to warm the interior if you want the comfort.
Unless you plan on using it when the temperatures are below -20C I wouldn't have expected any benefit.
Might be useful in the arctic..

Might be worth running the vehicle through this winter to see if you have a problem before you look for a solution.
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Re: Pre heating

Post by Libraryman2 on Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:28 pm

Yes I accept your points, I'm not in anyway a pedantic, I simply believe that they have a place in winter cold mornings.

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Re: Pre heating

Post by daisy mae on Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:37 pm

I have an electric oil heater on in my motor home , it is so nice to get into a warm van when I want to go out, also makes everything cosy, it is set just above the freezing setting and that is sufficient, it isn`t expensive to run either, it is on a thermostat.
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Pre Heating

Post by KimF on Wed Nov 30, 2016 11:01 pm

daisy mae wrote:I have an electric oil heater on in my motor home , it is so nice to get into a warm van when I want to go out, also makes everything cosy, it is set just above the freezing setting and that is sufficient, it isn`t expensive to run either, it is on a thermostat.
I think the Kenlowe heater that Ray has is more about pre-heating the engine block by tapping into the coolant system and then passing hot water around the engine block prior to a cold start, as opposed to pre-heating the cab and van itself. Quite a good piece of kit, perhaps more suited to vehicles kept in really cold climates.

http://www.kenlowe.com/Heating.php
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Re: Pre heating

Post by PLOUGHLIN on Wed Nov 30, 2016 11:52 pm

The merc chassis has an 5kw Webasto auxiliary diesel heater plumbed into the engine jacket to give quick warm up of engine and cab heater, only operates when engine running.

Unfortunately  AS don't specify the more advanced option with remote operation to preheat the engine before you get in and drive away.

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Re: Pre heating

Post by matchlessman on Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:25 pm

I'm still not sure what the benefit would be in the UK.
Comfort?
MPG improvement?
Happy to be convinced.
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Re: Pre heating

Post by Pete Taylor on Thu Dec 01, 2016 7:12 pm

I discussed the auxiliary heater with my Merc Service Manager, he said that as A-S were, at the time (2014/5) buying RHD Euro-spec units; this heater came with the package (some parts of Northern Europe get very cold!). I think that A-S are now buying the UK spec units, so do they still have the aux heater?
Incidentally I only used it once, noticed no difference and forgot to switch the thing off for about 20 minutes, the warning light in the switch is tiny and the switch can't be seen from a normal driving position- there is no auto-off!

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Re: Pre heating

Post by dandywarhol on Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:50 pm

Modern diesels are much more thermally efficient than of old, therefore their heaters are not thermally efficient - the heat is used by the engine to produce power! up!   I think Libraryman is right in his theory but you may well find that your engine already has an electric heating element in the cooling system to raise the coolant temperature quickly - I know that my Euro 4 Renault Master 2.5 has as standard

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Re: Pre heating

Post by Jaytee on Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:50 pm

Well I am with Ray  (Libraryman) here up! 
 The greatest wear in any combustion engine is on start (OK, mostly due to the time it takes oil to get round) but pre heating with a Kenlow does help and does save fuel. I have one on my Landrover and a nice warm quiet engine on start at most times of the year makes it well worthwhile. allthumbz

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Re: Pre heating

Post by boxerman on Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:36 pm

dandywarhol wrote:Modern diesels are much more thermally efficient than of old, therefore their heaters are not thermally efficient - the heat is used by the engine to produce power! up!   I think Libraryman is right in his theory but you may well find that your engine already has an electric heating element in the cooling system to raise the coolant temperature quickly - I know that my Euro 4 Renault Master 2.5 has as standard

Welcome back up!
Good to see you posting again.

Frank
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Re: Pre heating

Post by dandywarhol on Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:23 pm

Why thank you kind Sir. I got a PM for some help and I just couldn't myself look at a few posts........................  snigger

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Re: Pre heating

Post by Pete Taylor on Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:49 pm

Jaytee wrote:Well I am with Ray  (Libraryman) here up! 
 The greatest wear in any combustion engine is on start (OK, mostly due to the time it takes oil to get round) but pre heating with a Kenlow does help and does save fuel. I have one on my Landrover and a nice warm quiet engine on start at most times of the year makes it well worthwhile. allthumbz
... but a Diesel engine uses light oil as a fuel and the cylinder bores are therefore lubricated when it is cold. I would totally agree with your comment regarding petrol engines.

With all the billions of euros/dollars/pounds/yen etc. spent on developing Diesel engines, do you not think that if fitting a 30-40 year old accessory was the slightest bit of use, then someone would already have done it? lol4

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Re: Pre heating

Post by dandywarhol on Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:03 pm

Pete Taylor wrote:
Jaytee wrote:Well I am with Ray  (Libraryman) here up! 
 The greatest wear in any combustion engine is on start (OK, mostly due to the time it takes oil to get round) but pre heating with a Kenlow does help and does save fuel. I have one on my Landrover and a nice warm quiet engine on start at most times of the year makes it well worthwhile. allthumbz
... but a Diesel engine uses light oil as a fuel and the cylinder bores are therefore lubricated when it is cold. I would totally agree with your comment regarding petrol engines.

With all the billions of euros/dollars/pounds/yen etc. spent on developing Diesel engines, do you not think that if fitting a 30-40 year old accessory was the slightest bit of use, then someone would already have done it? lol4

A bit harsh Peter  think_smiley_46 Maybe the OP just wanted to go into a warmer van before setting off. Many modern manufacturers (Ford/VAG etc.) actually fit a Webasto Thermo Top coolant heater to augment the interior heating system because the modern diesel engine so so much more thermally efficient than old diesel engines. PSA offer it as an auxiliary heater for their larger vans, so why not a Kenlowe - does the same thing only 240v.
https://www.webasto.com/gb/markets-products/car/heating-systems-for-automotive-industry/auxiliary-heaters/

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Re: Pre heating

Post by Jaytee on Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:15 am

Pete Taylor wrote:
Jaytee wrote:Well I am with Ray  (Libraryman) here up! 
 The greatest wear in any combustion engine is on start (OK, mostly due to the time it takes oil to get round) but pre heating with a Kenlow does help and does save fuel. I have one on my Landrover and a nice warm quiet engine on start at most times of the year makes it well worthwhile. allthumbz
... but a Diesel engine uses light oil as a fuel and the cylinder bores are therefore lubricated when it is cold. I would totally agree with your comment regarding petrol engines.

With all the billions of euros/dollars/pounds/yen etc. spent on developing Diesel engines, do you not think that if fitting a 30-40 year old accessory was the slightest bit of use, then someone would already have done it? lol4

Peter, you have forgotten all the other moving parts in the engine. Not at all like you look here. And why do so many vehicles now fit diesel pre heaters? Yours for example? shrugg So perhaps not 30 or 40 year old accessory lol4

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Re: Pre heating

Post by Pete Taylor on Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:03 pm

Jaytee wrote:
Peter, you have forgotten all the other moving parts in the engine. Not at all like you look here. And why do so many vehicles now fit diesel pre heaters? Yours for example? shrugg So perhaps not 30 or 40 year old accessory lol4
Ah, but the Merc heater is not a pre-heater, it's an auxilliary heater, which can only be operated once the engine has been started!
It will bring the coolant up to operating temperature in a shorter time but only once the engine is running. Unfortunately, in our case, it does not automatically switch off when that point is reached, which seems rather daft.
None of the "other moving parts" will be lubricated any better by having any form of heater fitted(!), that's down to the oil-pump, which reaches operating pressure in fractions of a second, once the engine is started. Even if a vehicle is left standing for months there will be a residual film of oil on the moving surfaces.
Where a pre-heater is useful is in places like Canada, where it gets properly cold; here it is common to have a "block heater" on a timer plugged into one's house (let's not get into the electrical protection argument again!!!). Where these are useful is by warming the oil in the engine, making it "thinner" and therefore the engine can turn over more easily. Even in the wilds of Scotland it does not often get seriously cold; also modern Diesel fuel does not turn to wax like it did only 20 years ago.
In the "old days" it was argued that when starting a cold petrol with enriched fuel (choke on) then that extra petrol would wash any residual oil from the bores, causing wear on the piston rings and the bores themselves. This is open to challenge as the oil on the bores is below the scraper ring and would be present as soon as working oil pressure was achieved (seconds), this oil is then removed by the scraper ring as the piston descends (unless the engine is knackered!). smile!

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Re: Pre heating

Post by dandywarhol on Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:21 pm

So Peter, it is open to challenge smile!  The petrol enrichener (choke) on a carburettor or longer duration of petrol injection of a single point injection system for cold start would supply additional fuel into the cold intake manifold to enable the air/fuel mixture in the cylinder to be as near stoichiometric as possible for a cold engine because the cold manifold doesn't allow the mixture to vapourise as readily, therefore the cylinders are starved of fuel for starting, necessitating a rich mixture.
 The heavier fuel tends to drop into the cold manifold and eventually gets drawn into the cylinder and can wash the bore of oil. Nowhere in the oil pressure system is there any direct supply of pressurised oil getting to the cylinder bore and the little there is from splash from below will be diluted by the excess fuel.
Not so though in a multipoint petrol engine as the fuel is injected directly behind the intake valve (or directly into the cylinder) and a cold intake manifold won't affect it, therefore less fuel is required to cold start a multi point engine and therefore less oil is washed off the cylinder wall.
Diesels of course don't have this problem as the fuel (nowadays) is injected directly into the cylinder and only requires a little air preheat to help the starting process.

It is still nice to get the van warm quickly on a cold day so I still think a mains powered coolant preheater van will warm quicker than an auxiliary post start heater engine  allthumbz

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