Nuevo winter pack

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Nuevo winter pack

Post by dbroada on Sun Oct 23, 2016 2:27 pm

In a former life I designed "matrix panels" for oil rigs. Regularly the operator's rep would word a phrase that left you wondering if the light showed that something was on or if it was off. I am reminded of that concept with my two switches, "Waste tank heater isolator" and "Fresh water tank isolator". Each switch is illuminated and I can't convince myself whether a lit switch means that the heater has been isolated or if it is working.

What do you do with these switches? Is your use different if you are using the van in cold weather or laying it up?

I haven't touched them and have the FRESH tank one above the hab door in the OFF position but the WASTE one under the bed in the ON position.

confused3

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Re: Nuevo winter pack

Post by Peter Brown on Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:44 pm

If the indicator light on the switch is 'on' then the tank blanket is being powered. If you are not on 230v hook up you will soon have very flat battery.

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Re: Nuevo winter pack

Post by dbroada on Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:56 pm

Peter Brown wrote:If the indicator light on the switch is 'on' then the tank blanket is being powered.  If you are not on 230v hook up you will soon have very flat battery.

Thanks, at least I have them both off now.

So its not an isolation switch as indicated by the text then?

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Re: Nuevo winter pack

Post by Peter Brown on Sun Oct 23, 2016 4:09 pm

The switches you are referring too are isolation switches.

There is a 'defrost' button on the main control panel that enables the tank heaters but, if for instance there was no water in the waste water tank, the blanket on that tank would overheat and burn out therefore you have the two isolation switches so that either or both tank blankets can be disabled even if the switch on the control panel is operated.

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Re: Nuevo winter pack

Post by dbroada on Sun Oct 23, 2016 4:19 pm

Peter Brown wrote:The switches you are referring too are isolation switches.

There is a 'defrost' button on the main control panel that enables the tank heaters but, if for instance there was no water in the waste water tank, the blanket on that tank would overheat and burn out therefore you have the two isolation switches so that either or both tank blankets can be disabled even if the switch on the control panel is operated.
confused3

Where is this "defrost" button? I have the small panel with 4 buttons for power, pump, exterior lamp and battery select along with a scrolling display with up, side & down arrows.

I am still confused over the wording of the switches. You are saying the heaters are off when the isolation switches are off, I still can't understand what they have isolated.

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Re: Nuevo winter pack

Post by Peter Brown on Sun Oct 23, 2016 4:26 pm

http://www.auto-sleepers.com/media/2014/12/Nuevo-2016-handbook.pdf

see page 9-20 in the handbook linked above

It seems there are three options of electrical control system that could be fitted to your van. If you have the EC328 then there is not a defrost button on the control panel or provision of fuses for the tank heaters in the PSU. In that case there will be a fuse(s) connected directly to the leisure battery and then to the two tank heater switches, the circuits may well bypass the main 12v on/off switch so the heaters could drain the battery with the 12v switched off. In any event, if the light on the switch is on then there is power going to the relevant tank heater.


Last edited by Peter Brown on Sun Oct 23, 2016 4:35 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : additional information)

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Re: Nuevo winter pack

Post by dbroada on Sun Oct 23, 2016 5:01 pm

Thanks,

I had read that last week in the paper handbook and immediately forgotten it.

I may well have damaged the waste tank heater then as the light has been lit and I think the temp dropped into single figures while we were away.

I still cant locate the defrost button though. The "key facilities chart" doesn't list it and its not mentioned in any other place in the handbook (now I have an electronic one).

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Re: Nuevo winter pack

Post by Peter Brown on Sun Oct 23, 2016 5:05 pm

Which Sargent electrical system do you have?

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Re: Nuevo winter pack

Post by dbroada on Sun Oct 23, 2016 5:07 pm

Peter Brown wrote:http://www.auto-sleepers.com/media/2014/12/Nuevo-2016-handbook.pdf

see page 9-20 in the handbook linked above

It seems there are three options of electrical control system that could be fitted to your van.  If you have the EC328 then there is not a defrost button on the control panel or provision of fuses for the tank heaters in the PSU.  In that case there will be a fuse(s) connected directly to the leisure battery and then to the two tank heater switches, the circuits may well bypass the main 12v on/off switch so the heaters could drain the battery with the 12v switched off.  In any event, if the light on the switch is on then there is power going to the relevant tank heater.
Yes, I am inclined to believe the heaters are independent of the main power button and what I actually have are heater control switches. I'm still not clear from the text whether they turn on when the temperature falls to 7 degrees or if they are on irrespective of the outside temperature.

I'm off to Marquis this week for some warranty work, I wonder if they know? (I won't be holding my breath. When I asked how to operate the corner steadies I was told it didn't have them and he looked under to check.)

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Re: Nuevo winter pack

Post by dbroada on Sun Oct 23, 2016 5:10 pm

Peter Brown wrote:Which Sargent electrical system do you have?
The PSU looks like the 328 in the manual and the control panel looks like the one shown on page 7-19. I can't immediately see a number.

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Re: Nuevo winter pack

Post by Cymro on Sun Oct 23, 2016 7:35 pm

As far as I can tell, on my 2015 Nuevo, the control panel near the hab door does not have a Defrost button. Nor is there one anywhere else.

What I do have (as part of the "Winter Pack" is a switch near the leisure battery (screwed to that part of the ground-level side of the wardrobe facing forward under the forward-facing seat) which is misleadingly labelled "Waste tank heater isolation switch"; it is a rocker switch, which lights up (sorry, can't tell what colour!) when the power is on.  Clearly, it is only isolating the heater blanket when the switch is off - so the label would be clearer if it had omitted the word "Isolation".

Above the hab door I have the other switch. That is likewise labelled "Fresh water tank heater isolation switch". It is a rocker switch in the vertical plane - but has no illumination. I believe it's off when the upper half of the switch is pressed in - and I've taped mine in that position for the summer, to avoid accidentally switching it on.

Both switches will operate to allow power to the blankets whether or not the Power button (top left button on the control panel near the hab entrance) is on or off.

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Re: Nuevo winter pack

Post by dbroada on Sun Oct 23, 2016 7:58 pm

Thanks Cymro, that is what I have too although my one above the hab door is illuminated and has a "0" engraved on the lower edge of the button. I also agree that it would be MUCH clearer if the word ISOLATION had not been included in the labelling. I was (incorrectly) assuming it was illuminated to indicate that the heaters were isolated.

My batteries are both sitting at about 12.5v so I don't think the blanket has been on despite the under seat switch being on, presumably as the temperature hasn't reached the thermostat trigger temperature.

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Re: Nuevo winter pack

Post by Cymro on Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:56 pm

dbroada wrote:Thanks Cymro, that is what I have too although my one above the hab door is illuminated and has a "0" engraved on the lower edge of the button.

Now I wonder whether that's 0 for ON, or 0 for OFF!!  If your 0 is for OFF, then your switch is the opposite of mine (or what I think mine does)  insofar as the 0 is on the lower part of your button. But if it's 0 for ON, then it works similarly to mine.

A little more design thought would have helped avoid ambiguity e.g "On / Off" or "O / |" or even "O / X".

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Re: Nuevo winter pack

Post by dbroada on Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:21 pm

Normally(?) switches are labelled 0 for off and I for on. (Binary logic for yes and no)

I have just finished writing a reply about what I think is happening when I realised I wasn't sure what my switch is actually like. I will venture downstairs again tomorrow and look more carefully before reporting.

It all comes down to my starting paragraph. When labelling functions, there is no room for anything less than explicit statements.

I cannot remember the exact wording that was given to us for the oil rig but the words along with the coloured light could be interpreted in 4 ways. It wouldn't have been so bad but it was a button to override the abandon platform function! I refused to continue with my design until somebody sorted out the wording.

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Re: Nuevo winter pack

Post by Cymro on Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:48 pm

Eats Shoots and Leaves!  One of my favourite little books. Says it all.
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Re: Nuevo winter pack

Post by dbroada on Sun Oct 23, 2016 11:26 pm

That has been on my shopping list for a long time but I haven't yet read i.

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Re: Nuevo winter pack

Post by inspiredron on Sun Oct 23, 2016 11:47 pm

Reading this thread it does sound like the EC328 panel. You refer to 4 buttons and 3 arrows. If you use the up or doen arrow you can scroll through the menu. One of the displays actually says EC328 followed by another letter (H or S? I cannot remember!) and also shows the internal temperature.
As has been said, the EC328 has no provision for tank heaters so there have to be master switches to allow you to switch the heaters off if you don't want them to operate. They are "Isolation switches". Power is fed to one side of the switch and from the other side a wire goes to the appropriate heater. It would be rather odd to have an indicator light on when the heaters were off! I have an isolation switch (otherwise known as a fused spur) on my immersion heater at home and it has a red neon on it which is ON when the heater is on and off when the heater is off. Your tank heater lights should be the same otherwise the lights would discharge your battery when the heaters are switched off -

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Re: Nuevo winter pack

Post by dbroada on Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:26 am

I know I've taken the point too far but "Isolation Switch" is their type, they are not performing that function. Remember I come from an industry where it is vitally important to know that something has been isolated and will usually have a light to indicate that the function has been performed. I am now happy to leave aside the label (maybe I'll take some tipex to it) and accept that it is the "Fresh water tank heater switch".

But before I go, some photos for Cymro.

When my switch is off I have a visible 0 on the lower edge and the red light is off. When the switch is on the light comes on. Presumably there is a visible I on the upper edge but I can't get my camera in there to see it. And I don't know how to rotate posted images so please lay on your side to view.



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Re: Nuevo winter pack

Post by Peter Brown on Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:49 am

thanks for the pics

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Re: Nuevo winter pack

Post by Cymro on Mon Oct 24, 2016 12:34 pm

Yes, Dave, thanks for the pictures. My label is identical, although the switch is not as posh and shiny.

It is not a switch to isolate. It is a switch merely to switch the blanket on, or off. If it were an isolation switch, then activating that switch would cause a relay or similar to turn off ("isolate") the supply to the heater. The illuminated light in the switch would confirm that the supply to the heater is disconnected.

But our switches do not do that. They directly control whether the blankets are on or off. They do not turn on an isolation system. When the light is on, so is the blanket. So labelling them as "Isolation" switches is misleading.

It doesn't matter much in the van, because I suspect that most people would beleive that if the switch is on (and illuminated) so the blanket is on. Indeed, that's how it works.

But in other walks of life, such sloppy grammar could be fatal - as you point out.

It takes a particular sort of grammarian pedant to enjoy this - and as an erstwhile lawyer, I confess that I do. Words are wonderful tools when used precisely! In any language. But can be dangerous when used negligently!

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Re: Nuevo winter pack

Post by dbroada on Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:00 pm

allthumbz

I'm not good at grammar but I do tend to take everything literally.

In this case I was genuinely confused. I assumed that the light would indicate that the blanket was active but I was drawn to that single word that wasn't just redundant but also introduced an ambiguity.

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