Weight displacement, front and rear axles

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Weight displacement, front and rear axles

Post by samleeds on Tue Oct 04, 2016 2:52 pm

According to the manual, the front axle should have an unladen weight of 1150kg and the rear 1280kg. This makes an unladen weight of 2430kg. It also states that the max laden weight is 2850kg so my allowable payload is 420kg.

It came with a bike rack and a wind out fiamma and after I put on a solar panel, status aerial, tv and bracket and the usual necessities like tool box and cups, plates etc etc, I am weighing in at 1100kg front and 1460kg rear. How I managed to get below the unladen front axle weight is beyond me but the rear is 180kg up over the unladen figure, which is about right. 

It would appear that I have in the region of 250kg left before I max out, but my question is such...........what should the weight of the back and front be when fully laden and maxed out (not that I will get there) but I am thinking of putting a scooter rack on the back which would put my totals on the right side of good but the rear will be badly disproportionate to the front.

Is anyone else maxed out and if so what are your axle loads. I cant see how i can put anything on the front to help the tallies balance, so its all going on the back, is this normal.

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Re: Weight displacement, front and rear axles

Post by PLOUGHLIN on Tue Oct 04, 2016 3:41 pm

Weight added behind the rear axle will transfer load from the front axle onto the rear. How much depends on the distance behind the rear axle that the load is applied and the wheelbase.

ie weight distance 1m, wheelbase 3m, the rear axle will be loaded by 1.33x the load, front axle reduced by 0.33x the load.

There should be a load plate giving the max front and rear axle loads, and the max vehicle load, which will be less than the sum of the axles.

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Re: Weight displacement, front and rear axles

Post by -mojo- on Tue Oct 04, 2016 3:46 pm

The maximum front and rear axle loads are shown on the van's load plate - typically they are the third and fourth figure respectively.

When you had the van weighed, is it possible that the van was low (ish) on fuel? That might explain some of the unexpected lack of weight on the front axle - on mine the fuel tank is quite a long way forward and weighs near enough 100 kilos when full.

Without knowing the load plate figures, I would guess you have nowhere near enough load capacity left on the rear axle for a scooter and rack (or scooter, towbar and rack, depending on type). However, you may be able to rearrange things by putting things like spare gas cylinder and anything else heavy closer to the front of the van.
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Re: Weight displacement, front and rear axles

Post by frederic on Tue Oct 04, 2016 4:01 pm

You may also like to check whether the Clubman has the heavy duty rear springs!
The later Anniversary and LE's did.
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Re: Weight displacement, front and rear axles

Post by samleeds on Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:35 pm

frederic wrote:You may also like to check whether the Clubman has the heavy duty rear springs!
The later Anniversary and LE's did.
frederic
Ive been told that this model has the independent rear suspension and has heavy duty springs but does that make any difference to the weight, or can the heavy duty springs take much more, therefore allowing a gross inbalance of weight distribution front to rear.

My main issue is that if the vehicle, unladen, has a difference of only 130kg front to rear......must this be the same when fully laden, ie:- must the front have 200kg more and the rear 250kg than unladen, or can the front have 100kg and the rear 350kg more. 

I will always be below the stated maximum but I am worried all my weight will go aft as opposed to forward because ive got nothing heavy to load over the front axles unless i run with a permanently full fuel tank and install 2 huge habitation batteries under the hood. Its all very confusing, lol.

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Re: Weight displacement, front and rear axles

Post by samleeds on Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:37 pm

-mojo- wrote:The maximum front and rear axle loads are shown on the van's load plate - typically they are the third and fourth figure respectively.

When you had the van weighed, is it possible that the van was low (ish) on fuel? That might explain some of the unexpected lack of weight on the front axle - on mine the fuel tank is quite a long way forward and weighs near enough 100 kilos when full.

Without knowing the load plate figures, I would guess you have nowhere near enough load capacity left on the rear axle for a scooter and rack (or scooter, towbar and rack, depending on type). However, you may be able to rearrange things by putting things like spare gas cylinder and anything else heavy closer to the front of the van.


The main reason why I am posting this is because my van has nothing wrote on the plate, its completely clean and very unusually so. The manual only gives the unladen axle weights and the gross but not the gross axle weights. I was hoping someone else had a clubman of similar age and could tell me what their plate read as Ive got nothing to go on.

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Re: Weight displacement, front and rear axles

Post by PLOUGHLIN on Tue Oct 04, 2016 7:50 pm

You haven't said what age/model your van is.

This earlier thread may help. http://www.autosleeper-ownersforum.com/t4254-clubman-gl-location-of-weight-plate

It quotes in one post (4th) Front- 1430kg, rear 1490kg.

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Re: Weight displacement, front and rear axles

Post by samleeds on Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:28 pm

I thought my vehicle year was on my profile, anyway its an early 1993 vw clubman with a gross weight (according to the manula) of 2850kg, but no weight plate data to read anywhere on the van, cab or chassis and trust me i have looked for hours.

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Re: Weight displacement, front and rear axles

Post by logburner on Tue Oct 04, 2016 9:02 pm

Your Revenue weight will most likely be on your Log book......this will be what the DVLA records will show, and more importantly, what the police will go by on any spot checks for overweight vehicles.........I know, because my m/home previous owner, had to contact the dvla to get our vehicle correctly adjusted on their records, and log book entry altered to show what the correct plated weight was, as it was showing considerably less. It is now at the correct weight of 2890kg gross. Yours may, or may not be the same.
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Re: Weight displacement, front and rear axles

Post by samleeds on Tue Oct 04, 2016 9:29 pm

logburner wrote:Your Revenue weight will most likely be on your Log book......this will be what the DVLA records will show, and more importantly, what the police will go by on any spot checks for overweight vehicles.........I know, because my m/home previous owner, had to contact the dvla to get our vehicle correctly adjusted on their records, and log book entry altered to show what the correct plated weight was, as it was showing considerably less. It is now at the correct weight of 2890kg gross. Yours may, or may not be the same.
the log book isnt back yet, i will look when it gets here.

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Re: Weight displacement, front and rear axles

Post by samleeds on Wed Oct 05, 2016 5:08 pm

samleeds wrote:
logburner wrote:Your Revenue weight will most likely be on your Log book......this will be what the DVLA records will show, and more importantly, what the police will go by on any spot checks for overweight vehicles.........I know, because my m/home previous owner, had to contact the dvla to get our vehicle correctly adjusted on their records, and log book entry altered to show what the correct plated weight was, as it was showing considerably less. It is now at the correct weight of 2890kg gross. Yours may, or may not be the same.
the log book isnt back yet, i will look when it gets here.
i give up how do i attach a picture

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Re: Weight displacement, front and rear axles

Post by samleeds on Wed Oct 05, 2016 5:56 pm

this is my weight plate, empty as stated

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Re: Weight displacement, front and rear axles

Post by samleeds on Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:31 pm

I have tried every conceivable source I could find, but to date, nobody seems to know what the max laden weight regarding the axles are. Not even the autosleeper company themselves seem to be able to help and when asked if i can put a scooter on the back, once again i got a resounding, I dont know that answer. It wouldappear that the only hope is to find another vw clubman like mine and ask the owner what their plate reads as nobody has posted it on here.

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Re: Weight displacement, front and rear axles

Post by PLOUGHLIN on Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:46 pm

Did you see my post of yesterday 7.50pm. Max axle weight are mentioned.

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Re: Weight displacement, front and rear axles

Post by samleeds on Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:56 pm

PLOUGHLIN wrote:Did you see my post of yesterday 7.50pm. Max axle weight are mentioned.
I did read it but thought that it was a different model and spec to mine, obviously not. Thanks for that. Looks like the only way I will get a weight displacement like that is to place the scooter on the front, lol.

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Re: Weight displacement, front and rear axles

Post by -mojo- on Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:16 pm

It's an interesting position to be in. If - hypothetically - you were to get pulled in for a random load check by the DVSA (was VOSA) it makes you wonder what they would do. If registered as a commercial/goods vehicle I ~think~ it's mandatory to have a weight plate, but I've no idea what they would do in the absence of one without any marks on it!

In practice, I'm fairly sure that VW should be able to tell you what the relevant figures are. Mine came with a "Technical Data" booklet which shows the maximum permitted loads for all of the variants of that model type. It's quite difficult to figure out exactly which model you have, but it should be possible. So a VW Commercial dealer ~should~ be able to answer the question. However, the difficulty would be finding anyone there who would be willing to search for your VIN on their system and find out the answers...
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Re: Weight displacement, front and rear axles

Post by johnnyxs on Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:42 pm

you might find this site helpful
http://www.caravanguard.co.uk/news/how-to-calculate-your-motorhome%E2%80%99s-safe-weight-limits-4104/

Don't forget that any extra load placed behind the rear axle will have the effect of removing some load on the front axle .
The further back from the rear axle the greater the lifting effect on the front axle. Like a seesaw in principle
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Re: Weight displacement, front and rear axles

Post by samleeds on Wed Oct 12, 2016 5:15 pm

I now have all my facts from VW direct. The unladen is ambiguous to say the least because some sources say with and some without water and petrol etc, so the unladen isnt a problem, its the fully laden we are all judged by.

my van is now street ready with all necessities installed. 

The front axle has R-540kg and L-600kg which is a total weight of 1140kg

The rear axle has R-720kg and L-790kg which is a total weight of 1510kg

My total weight with everything in the van including me and mission control is now 2650kg

VW say the gross or fully laden weight should not exceed 2850kg so i am well under that by 200kg. However they split the axle weights Front 1375kg and Rear 1475kg making 2850kg.

As you can see, my rear axle has reached a max load scenario yet my front is well under by at least 200kg and ive got loads on the front bed. In fact I cant get anything more up front and have come to the conclusion that I am stuck with this scenario as I cant see how to transfer weight from the back to the front as its all fixed. 

Everything heavy is as far forward as I can get it and everything towards the rear is either lightweight or non existent. In fact I could easily accommodate a scooter and rack on the front bumper, but thats not allowed. 

Why do they do these weights when its impossible to get near them. Has anyone got any ideas how to shift some of this weight forward or am I stuck with it.

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Re: Weight displacement, front and rear axles

Post by mikethebike on Wed Oct 12, 2016 5:47 pm

Hi . Thats a difficult vehicle.  Water is very heavy. Can you make sure you have empty tanks?
Water is usually at the rear.  Also any weight between axles is shared.Have you any items you could go without?
Raising your rear tyre pressures may help,you could try and see.

Regards

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Re: Weight displacement, front and rear axles

Post by johnnyxs on Wed Oct 12, 2016 5:48 pm

you might look at uprating your suspension at the rear and getting your max loading Rating upgraded.
Your vans max loading tarrifs are determined in a large part by your vans suspension characteristics

If you take the Ford Transit van as an example . Two identical vans in all respects except one van has a double wheel rear axle and the other has single wheels the former has a significantly increased max loading allowance due to the upgraded suspension
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Re: Weight displacement, front and rear axles

Post by -mojo- on Wed Oct 12, 2016 5:55 pm

samleeds wrote:However they split the axle weights Front 1375kg and Rear 1475kg making 2850kg.

That doesn't look right to me. I guess it could be right, but no van that I've ever owned in the past has been rated so that the max load on the front added to the max load on the rear axle adds up to the maximum permissible load!

My current T5 has front max 1550, rear max 1500 which added together is more than the max total weight of 2800. The example of a Clubman pointed to earlier in the thread similarly does not add up to the max load. This means that there is some flexibility about where you can place a load.

And, more importantly, if it is true it looks like you are currently running with an overloaded rear axle!

Whatever, even if the true rear axle figure is 1500kg, you still don't have any spare capacity, so I think your assumption is correct and you are stuck with it.
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Re: Weight displacement, front and rear axles

Post by johnnyxs on Wed Oct 12, 2016 7:44 pm

this all sounds very odd to me too!.

When AS built the Clubman range they obviously used a standard VW t4 base vehicle but with the huge extra weight they needed to add they would have uprated the suspension to give a very healthy safety margin .That might have been a heavy duty rear spring and damper which would have upped your load capacity considerably.

I suspect the figures that you are using are those for a stock vehicle which are clearly inadequate for your current loading.

I posted an excellent guide to calculating aditional loading on vehicles using Industry standard formula. ( 5 posts back)

Why don't you tell us what the weight of the scooter is that you hope to add,together with the weight of the towhitch rack. Measure the distance from the centre of your rear wheel to the centre of where your scooter would be if it were fixed to the back of your Clubman (overhang)
We can then work out what the actual loadings will be .
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Re: Weight displacement, front and rear axles

Post by samleeds on Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:22 pm

The scooter will be 85kg, the rack weighs 25kg and the distance from wheel to center of the rack will be aprox 5ft

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Re: Weight displacement, front and rear axles

Post by PLOUGHLIN on Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:35 pm

Weight added to rear axle will be 110x(1+(5/wheelbase in ft)) kg
Weight off to front axle will be 110x((5/wheelbase in ft)) kg

But if you are already overloaded on the rear it makes no difference what it is, you can't add it.

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Re: Weight displacement, front and rear axles

Post by samleeds on Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:42 pm

PLOUGHLIN wrote:Weight added to rear axle will be 110x(1+(5/wheelbase in ft)) kg
Weight off to front axle will be 110x((5/wheelbase in ft)) kg

But if you are already overloaded on the rear it makes no difference what it is, you can't add it.
Indeed I am overloaded if VW's figures are right but as someone suggested, they are probably the figures for the base transporter van. What I cant understand is that wooten have a scooter on the back of a similar van to mine on their home page and my friend in burnley has a 250cc motorbike on the back of his and is still inside the gross weight but like me, he does not have a weight plate on his either. 

Its all so confusing but even if i load my van to the max, the rear axle is going to be well over weight, well the weights the VW has given me.

Is there anyone out there with a 1990's vw based clubman with a weight plate with figures on it, that would solve all my issues.

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