fuel or oil addatives

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fuel or oil addatives

Post by samleeds on Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:43 pm

I know some of us have engines that are over 20 years old and although they have been lovingly taken care of and serviced regularly, does anyone add oil additives like slick 50 or even fuel additives that clean the injectors on the petrol engines. Im sure there are some things out there that are BS but are there any that actually make the engines run better or protect them so they last longer. As a matter of course I always use V power or the expensive unleaded option anyway.

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Re: fuel or oil addatives

Post by dbroada on Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:59 pm

This is another area that you can ask 10 different experts and get 15 different expert answers.

I remember reading an article about a test run by moly slip - one of the early oil additives in the uk. They got two oldish cars in a similar condition. They added moly slip to one and ran it for a month. They then drained the oil from both cars and drove them around a race track. The moly slip one did go on for longer but the non treated one went on for an embarrassingly long time too.

The general feeling in the VW forum I used to visit was any oil was better than no oil and replacing the oil frequently was better than additives.

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Re: fuel or oil addatives

Post by rogerblack on Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:36 pm

On both my car and motorhome I use BP Ultimate or equivalent whenever available; if I have to buy cheaper supermarket type diesel (mainly when touring France) then I use a fuel additive (Redox or similar).

Whether this as claims keeps the glow plugs, injectors or whatever cleaner I don't know although touch wood fingersx  neither have needed attention, I also keep track of fuel consumption and I do seem to get a higher mpg when using Ultimate*, 

although I see an even bigger improvement when Mrs B does the driving as she is less heavy footed on the throttle than me!    parfum

I don't know about the oil though, as anything under the bonnet beyond filling the screen-wash bottle I leave to my garage.  frustrating

* I note BP are now actually claiming that you can get up to 21 miles more per tankful - I assume they must be able to provide some satisfactory evidence of this to satisfy the ASA.
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Re: fuel or oil addatives

Post by Gromit on Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:49 pm

Be careful though - there's plenty of snake oil around for the unwary!!   shrugg

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Re: fuel or oil addatives

Post by dbroada on Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:06 pm

rogerblack wrote:* I note BP are now actually claiming that you can get up to 21 miles more per tankful - I assume they must be able to provide some satisfactory evidence of this to satisfy the ASA.
I assume they have "small print" with that. I am getting 500 miles per tank with the Nuevo so a 4% gain, not too bad. I could only do 180 miles in the Smart with its 22l tank so 12%. Much more impressive.

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Re: fuel or oil addatives

Post by rogerblack on Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:42 pm

The 'up to 21 miles extra per tank' is now headlined at the pumps but G@@gle found me an article on the claim including the full details:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/news/bp-claims-new-super-fuel-adds-21-miles-per-tank/
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Re: fuel or oil addatives

Post by boxerman on Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:12 am

The only additive that I can honestly say that I have noticed any results from is Comma petrol magic injector cleaner, and then I cheated smile!
The tickover, acceleration & running were developing some unevenness last December so I removed the injectors and soaked them overnight in a jar of the stuff.
After refitting the injectors and emptying the jar into the tank, the unevenness & acceleration had been cured. Just hope I'm not going to have to do it every 13 years!
It runs very well on Sainsbury's unleaded, thank you, or Morrisons etc.. etc.

I've tried Moyslip in the engine and the gearbox and haven't noticed a jot of difference  shrugg

The only time it used any oil was when I tried this super thin fully synth, so now it gets semi synth and is back to never needing any top ups [actually, it could be due for an oil & filter change?].

I think the term 'snake oil' sums the majority of these products up.

'Extra 21 miles per tank' is a bit meaningless unless the state the capacity of the tank. Wagon tanks hold hundreds of litres  smile!

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Re: fuel or oil addatives

Post by bikeralw on Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:53 am

Having read reports of fuel and oil additives on many bike forums over the years, the consensus of opinion seems to be that they are all an expensive waste of money. Snake oil all of them, especially the ones that claim to give more mpg, at a tenner a bottle...
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Re: fuel or oil addatives

Post by Greyhound on Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:55 am

Using Premium fuels is a waste of money unless your engine can specifically make use of it, and a motorhome/van engine really won't be gaining anything from it.

Injector additives are ok, but most modern fuels contain cleaners anyway so again, you're not really gaining anything.

If you want to run some through to do a clean, it needs to be concentrated and nowhere near the dilute amounts the manufacturers recommend. In fact proper injector cleaners requires you to take the send and return pipes off the fuel rail and run only the cleaner through.

In terms of oil additives, you're simply better off changing oil regularly. If the oil is shot, no amount of additive will help. Put your money into regular oil changes and you wont go far wrong.
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Re: fuel or oil addatives

Post by RML on Thu Sep 29, 2016 5:16 pm

Having experience of the oil industry basically there are 2 types of additives: The first cleans the inlet valves and injection system and is destroyed on combustion, the second, and more expensive, cleans as the first and also the exhaust ports after combustion.  The company I worked for had independent testing of their products and mobile laboratories toured the country blind testing retail outlets to ensure it was present at the point of sale.  All basic fuel must meet the British Standard displayed on the pump.
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Re: fuel or oil addatives

Post by rogerblack on Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:19 pm

RML wrote:Having experience of the oil industry  . . .
Rich..


You might wanna be careful admitting to that on here, Rich.

Before you know it, the non-believers on here will be pillorying you as a snake oil salesman.   rolleyes

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Re: fuel or oil addatives

Post by rogerblack on Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:23 pm

boxerman wrote: . . .

'Extra 21 miles per tank' is a bit meaningless unless the state the capacity of the tank. Wagon tanks hold hundreds of litres  smile!

Frank


For the benefit of those who couldn't be bothered to follow the link I posted above, I quote below from the relevant part of the article:

"BP claims its new fuel is worth up to 21 miles extra for each tank fill, based on its own driving cycle and a tank size giving 391 miles for a petrol engine and 516 miles for a diesel."
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Re: fuel or oil addatives

Post by boxerman on Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:29 pm

rogerblack wrote:

For the benefit of those who couldn't be bothered to follow the link I posted above, I quote below from the relevant part of the article:

"BP claims its new fuel is worth up to 21 miles extra for each tank fill, based on its own driving cycle and a tank size giving 391 miles for a petrol engine and 516 miles for a diesel."
For the benefit of those who do not use the same font as others, I did read the article, but it didn't give a proper figure in tank capacity in litres or gallons, nor does it express claimed savings as a percentage.
My van needs 88 litres - 19.36 gallons to do 391 miles and 92.63 litres - 20.4 gallons to do 412 miles, and the fuel tank isn't that big confused3
Other people get far more miles to the gallon than I do, so are they basing the extra 21 miles per tankfull on 'other people's' mpg or on mine?

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Re: fuel or oil addatives

Post by daisy mae on Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:38 pm

Noggin wrote:Using Premium fuels is a waste of money unless your engine can specifically make use of it, and a motorhome/van engine really won't be gaining anything from it.

Injector additives are ok, but most modern fuels contain cleaners anyway so again, you're not really gaining anything.

If you want to run some through to do a clean, it needs to be concentrated and nowhere near the dilute amounts the manufacturers recommend.  In  fact proper injector cleaners requires you to take the send and return pipes off the fuel rail and run only the cleaner through.

In terms of oil additives, you're simply better off changing oil regularly.  If the oil is shot, no amount of additive will help.  Put your money into regular oil changes and you wont go far wrong.
I don`t consider using BP Ultimate a waste of money, my van runs quieter, smoother and I do get more miles per gallon, plus I have always had oil changes plus filters, every 3 thousand miles or every year which ever comes first and I buy good quality oil., I  do not use fuel additives.

This is my choice.
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Re: fuel or oil addatives

Post by rogerblack on Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:47 pm

Please accept my apologies if the font on the quote I posted earlier caused difficulty for anyone; it wasn't deliberate but came about from the quote being cut and pasted so was presumably carried over from the source.

For the benefit of those who struggle with basic maths, I have done the calculations below.

Using BP's figures as quoted, for petrol:

21/(391-21)*100 = 5.68%
21/(516-21)*100 = 4.24%
E&OE

I'm not sure why I seem to have become Devil's advocate for BP, I have no axe to grind one way or the other. 
As has been said, what may benefit a 2.8HDi may not offer similar advantages to a basic 1.9 petrol engine.

In any event, as daisy mae has pointed out, it's our own choice at the end of the day whether we feel that there is an advantage in using higher octane fuels with or without additives. You pays your money and makes your choice and as I have loadsa money I can easily afford the extra few pence per litre, especially since I tend to fill up when there's triple Nectar points thus adding thrupence farthing's worth of extra free Sainsbury groceries into the equation.

If others wish to believe it's all 'snake oil', that is equally their choice which I fully respect. That doesn't mean it's not worthwhile presenting the other side of the coin, hopefully without it turning into an argument.
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Re: fuel or oil addatives

Post by Greyhound on Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:07 am

daisy mae wrote:I don`t consider using BP Ultimate a waste of money, my van runs quieter, smoother and I do get more miles per gallon, plus I have always had oil changes plus filters, every 3 thousand miles or every year which ever comes first and I buy good quality oil., I  do not use fuel additives.

This is my choice.

It's everyone's choice and everyone's cash so each to their own. You can't go wrong with decent regular oil changes.

In terms of premium fuel, yes you do get slightly more to the gallon with it, I use it in my car, but it's turbo charged and is tuned to make use of the higher octane rating.

The better mpg is then outweighed by the expense however, so it's not really an argument to solely base a reason to buy it on. In petrol engines, if they are not tuned for higher octane it's a complete waste of money.

IMO you should be using the fuel most suited to the engine. In diesels there is evidence the premium fuel delays the build up of carbon deposits, but this isn't a miracle cure, they will still build up, just a little slower. In these cases it's been shown that regular diesel with a fuel additive gives better protection than the premium fuel. As above, some 'cleaners' will survive the combustion and will then help clean the exhaust side of things including the turbo as the exhaust gases are forced through.

Unfortunately fuels and additives is another one of the "what tyre should I use" questions where everyone will have a different angle and it could go in circles for days/weeks.

All I would say is make your decision on informed reasoning and not perceptions.
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Re: fuel or oil addatives

Post by Gromit on Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:15 am

Why not just wear a lighter pair of shoes!!  smile!  allthumbz

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Re: fuel or oil addatives

Post by burlingtonboaby on Fri Sep 30, 2016 10:28 am

Lots of information on the topic on premium fuels, addatives etc, posted over the years by forum fuel experts and vans users. Search it out using the search box.
I use premium diesel as I like the extra torque when using the cruise control, I don't have to drop down the gears as frequently , thus dis engaging the C/C.
My logs show an improvement in fuel consumption when using premium fuels in comparison to standard diesel.
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Re: fuel or oil addatives

Post by matchlessman on Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:09 am

I did some tests in a sports car I used to have. 700cc turbo 120 bhp so it was working quite hard. Recommended fuel was the high octane, but I ran it for years, commuting 80 miles a day using supermarket ordinary. Marginal drop in absolute performance but as it wasn't flat out for more than a few minutes it made no difference in the real world. Fuel consumption no noticeable difference. For any engine working less hard a total waste of money. 

As far as the additives in fuel are concerned, a good run along the motorway doing 70 ish? for 30 or 40 miles will do as much to clear out the carbon as most of the snake oil additives.

The inclusion of ethanol in fuel now could account for a reduction in fuel consumption figures. I believe the high octane fuel doesn't contain ethanol, which could account for the improvement.

For me a major problem with ethanol is that my old Trials bike has a fibreglass petrol tank and ethanol can cause it to delaminate - nasty stuff. I use the high octane and drain it after every event. No idea what the consumption is, quarter of a gallon for a days riding???
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Re: fuel or oil addatives

Post by boxerman on Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:03 am

I have a different problem with the ethanol. Because I'm not using the bike much nowadays, the ethanol combines with water from the atmosphere [I don't think rain is getting into the tank, but it could be?] and forms a gel which separates from the petrol and sinks to the bottom where it is sucked into the fuel pump causing pops, bangs, misfires & cutting out.
So like Matchlessman, I now drain the tank after every ride unless I know I'll be using the bike again soon.

As an aside, a simple way of removing ethanol is to mix some water with the petrol in a clear container and leave it to separate. Then syphon the water/ethanol off the bottom.

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Re: fuel or oil addatives

Post by matchlessman on Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:46 pm

Yes, ethanol is hygroscopic and will absorb water leading to rusty tanks. Washing the petrol sounds like a good trick, 10% water, a good shake then let it settle out, with the ethanol mixed in the water hence out of the petrol. Possibly a funnel with a filter would separate the water / petrol in the container.
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