Advice on LPG conversion and Turbo installati

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Advice on LPG conversion and Turbo installati

Post by samleeds on Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:34 pm

I am soon to become the proud owner of a 1993 vw based 2 liter petrol Autosleeper Clubman. We were both thinking of converting it to LPG to offset the virtues that these engines are gas guzzlers and with the addition of a turbo or supercharger, could this solve the lack of power issues. Doers anyone out there know what these conversions cost and indeed are they possible.
avatar
samleeds
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 243
Joined : 2016-09-13
Location : leeds
Auto-Sleeper : vw clubman
Vehicle Year : 1993

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Advice on LPG conversion and Turbo installati

Post by Paulmold on Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:45 pm

I've never thought of VW petrols to be gas guzzlers. I remember hiring one which did a out 30mpg and the following week hired a petrol Transit which did about 20mpg.  Think about the mileage you will do and the annual fuel cost and then compare it to the outlay of an LPG conversion and turbo and work out if it's worth doing.

_________________
If life just doesn't add up, start subtracting
avatar
Paulmold
Donator
Donator

Male

Posts : 11472
Joined : 2011-02-22
Location : Mold, North Wales
Auto-Sleeper : Nuevo ES
Vehicle Year : 2006

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Advice on LPG conversion and Turbo installati

Post by boxerman on Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:31 pm

I considered converting my Boxer to LPG some while ago. I made out a spreadsheet to work out the costs and for the mileage I did, it would take years to recoup the conversion costs before I started saving any money.

I cannot see that fitting a turbo or supercharger will help with economy either? although the engine does seem to be very low powered if the info I found is correct - 83bhp?

The page where I found this info may be of interest to you?
http://autosleeper.vwt4camper.info/html/vw_t4_autosleeper_clubman_gl.html

Frank
avatar
boxerman
Donator
Donator

Male

Posts : 3827
Joined : 2011-08-21
Location : Preston Lancs
Auto-Sleeper : '95 Symphony
Vehicle Year : 1995

View user profile http://www.rtmr.org

Back to top Go down

Re: Advice on LPG conversion and Turbo installati

Post by Greyhound on Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:34 pm

Have to agree, sounds like the time, money and hassle will far outweigh any benefits.
avatar
Greyhound
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 484
Joined : 2016-02-29
Location : Essex
Auto-Sleeper : Symbol
Vehicle Year : 2017

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Advice on LPG conversion and Turbo installati

Post by samleeds on Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:30 pm

The former owner tells me that it does around 20 to 22mpg and we are planning many touring holidays abroad in her. I can see us doing well over 3000 miles a year when we factor in at least one journey to Spain and back plus many more touring trips so 3000 miles would be around 145 gallons of unleaded @ £116 a liter or $5.22 a gallon = an annual cost of around £750 a year. LPG is roughly half the cost so an annual saving of around £375 per annum would be achievable plus the added bonus of using LPG to heat and power the cooking would give us an additional saving as well so it would pay for itself in less than 2 years and add value to the van come time for a change or an upgrade.

The turbo or supercharger would only be a cosmetic thing to add a bit of poke to the van, but I was hoping for advice on something I heard about boosting these engines power ratios quite cheaply as they are the ACC engine and similar or the same as the ones used in the old golf GTI models.

The LPG idea is probably going to happen, but the power boosting thing is just a fishing expedition exercise to see what views are out there. Thanks anyway.

_________________
You only have one wife and one life, treat them both as equally precious
avatar
samleeds
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 243
Joined : 2016-09-13
Location : leeds
Auto-Sleeper : vw clubman
Vehicle Year : 1993

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Advice on LPG conversion and Turbo installati

Post by boxerman on Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:25 pm

First off, its your money and its your van to do what you like with, but you asked for advice so I’ll tell you what I came up with when I looked [deeply] into it.

Over the last 12 months, I have been paying an average of £4.96 per gallon /£1.09 per litre for petrol.
A quick look on the internet gives the price of autogas as 70p per litre = £3.178 per gallon.

LPG is not as efficient as petrol so you would lose around 10 - 15% economy and power so your 83bhp becomes 75bhp and your 22 mpg becomes 18.7 mpg at best.
Based on your 3000 miles per annum and 22mpg [on petrol], if you estimate £1000 for the conversion, it will take 9729 miles / 3.24 years to break even with the cost of conversion, you will then save £308 per annum. That is running on 100% gas, which I believe is not always feasible as some engines will not start on gas or run on gas until warmed up, although some will. Not all filling stations sell LPG so there will be times when you could need to run on petrol.

If you want to run the domestic equipment from the same supply as the engine then you will need a special tank to take the LPG in liquid form for the engine and in gas form for the domestic supply.

I do not understand your use of the word ‘cosmetic’ regarding the supercharger / turbocharger? But I have no doubt that fitting one would involve an increase in insurance premiums – if you can get cover.

Personally, I think your best bet would be to look into getting the ECU ‘chipped’

Frank
avatar
boxerman
Donator
Donator

Male

Posts : 3827
Joined : 2011-08-21
Location : Preston Lancs
Auto-Sleeper : '95 Symphony
Vehicle Year : 1995

View user profile http://www.rtmr.org

Back to top Go down

Re: Advice on LPG conversion and Turbo installati

Post by samleeds on Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:54 pm

boxerman wrote:First off, its your money and its your van to do what you like with, but you asked for advice so I’ll tell you what I came up with when I looked [deeply] into it.

Over the last 12 months, I have been paying an average of £4.96 per gallon /£1.09 per litre for petrol.
A quick look on the internet gives the price of autogas as 70p per litre = £3.178 per gallon.

LPG is not as efficient as petrol so you would lose around 10 - 15% economy and power so your 83bhp becomes 75bhp and your 22 mpg becomes 18.7 mpg at best.
Based on your 3000 miles per annum and 22mpg [on petrol], if you estimate £1000 for the conversion, it will take 9729 miles / 3.24 years to break even with the cost of conversion, you will then save £308 per annum. That is running on 100% gas, which I believe is not always feasible as some engines will not start on gas or run on gas until warmed up, although some will. Not all filling stations sell LPG so there will be times when you could need to run on petrol.

If you want to run the domestic equipment from the same supply as the engine then you will need a special tank to take the LPG in liquid form for the engine and in gas form for the domestic supply.

I do not understand your use of the word ‘cosmetic’ regarding the supercharger / turbocharger? But I have no doubt that fitting one would involve an increase in insurance premiums – if you can get cover.

Personally, I think your best bet would be to look into getting the ECU ‘chipped’

Frank
Frank

Your advice is better thought out than mine and you seem to make a very good case for leaving the conversion alone. The bit about the ECU chipping interests me but what is it. I thought you could only chip a diesel. This is a 2l petrol which is 86bhp, so what difference and cost would be invlved if you happen to know anything about it. many thaks for the advice and we are now shelving the LPG idea as we didnt realise the gas option lost us power. This forum is great, so many knowledgable people on it.
avatar
samleeds
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 243
Joined : 2016-09-13
Location : leeds
Auto-Sleeper : vw clubman
Vehicle Year : 1993

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Advice on LPG conversion and Turbo installati

Post by mattpc on Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:14 pm

I have an LPG Autosleeper Clubman with the 2.0 petrol engine. I don't know about mpg but with LPG at 46p it costs 17p per mile to fuel it on LPG. Mine is a very old, basic conversion but it works. I suspect a modern conversion may be a little more fuel efficient and offer more power. I do switch over to petrol for big hills as the power is required. You could turbo the 2.0 engine I'm sure but it will complicate matters.

I am told that this 2.0 engine takes LPG very well and is a very suitable engine for this job.

One further note, I'm not sure that you can use your vehicle LPG tanks for cooking. I've never seen it done although I can't see why it would not be possible. I may be wrong and you could fit a different refillable system for the cooking and heating however...
avatar
mattpc
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 69
Joined : 2014-11-16
Location : Manchester
Auto-Sleeper : Clubman 2.0 LPG
Vehicle Year : 1992

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Advice on LPG conversion and Turbo installati

Post by boxerman on Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:40 pm

I could not find anywhere selling LPG at Matt’s figure of 46p per litre, but using that as a basis:
Miles to payback = 6209. Years to payback = 2.07. Savings per annum after payback = £483.18.

This is using the consumption as 18.7 mpg and not the 12.28 mpg that Matt is getting, I’ll let you work that one out yourself.  smile!
I don’t think that Matt’s 17p per mile will take into account the cost of conversion?

They were chipping petrol engines before diesels, shop around and see what is on offer.

Frank
avatar
boxerman
Donator
Donator

Male

Posts : 3827
Joined : 2011-08-21
Location : Preston Lancs
Auto-Sleeper : '95 Symphony
Vehicle Year : 1995

View user profile http://www.rtmr.org

Back to top Go down

Re: Advice on LPG conversion and Turbo installati

Post by mattpc on Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:46 pm

You have to shop around. http://www.filllpg.co.uk/index.php?page=lpg.php

Some places in Birmingham are around 40p or even less! However, buy it on the motorway and it's 60p per litre. Makes a big difference if you are putting 75 litres in.

Even at 60p per litre it's much cheaper to run on LPG.

Yes I probably am getting terrible MPG but as I said it's a very old install. Granted you may not always find a really cheap place to fill up but you should usually be able to find some around 54p and much cheaper if you hunt for it.

Personally I think it is worth it but I would only do it if I was going to use the van a lot and keep it for a good few years. I'm not sure about a turbo though..
avatar
mattpc
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 69
Joined : 2014-11-16
Location : Manchester
Auto-Sleeper : Clubman 2.0 LPG
Vehicle Year : 1992

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Advice on LPG conversion and Turbo installati

Post by mattpc on Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:48 pm

btw I am not indicating what fuel economy and running costs the OP will get. I'm just giving anecdotal evidence based on my experience. It's very easy to do the calcs and draw misleading conclusions so do calculate carefully and double check everything.
avatar
mattpc
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 69
Joined : 2014-11-16
Location : Manchester
Auto-Sleeper : Clubman 2.0 LPG
Vehicle Year : 1992

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Advice on LPG conversion and Turbo installati

Post by samleeds on Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:50 pm

Ive just spoken to the main man at a mapping company and he seemed very well educated and knowledgeable. His advise was leave well alone. The LPG option gives a reduced power rating to the engine and the need to flip back and forward from petrol and gas wasnt feesible. The mapping question would be expensive and with those older engines the benefit would be only 5 to 10% increase in BHP which would be wiped out by the drop in LPG power. 

Decisison made, live with it and find a way to reduce the payload by not using a scooter on the back, buying electric bikes instead. Job done.

_________________
You only have one wife and one life, treat them both as equally precious
avatar
samleeds
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 243
Joined : 2016-09-13
Location : leeds
Auto-Sleeper : vw clubman
Vehicle Year : 1993

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Advice on LPG conversion and Turbo installati

Post by mattpc on Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:51 pm

boxerman wrote:First off, its your money and its your van to do what you like with, but you asked for advice so I’ll tell you what I came up with when I looked [deeply] into it.

Over the last 12 months, I have been paying an average of £4.96 per gallon /£1.09 per litre for petrol.
A quick look on the internet gives the price of autogas as 70p per litre = £3.178 per gallon.

LPG is not as efficient as petrol so you would lose around 10 - 15% economy and power so your 83bhp becomes 75bhp and your 22 mpg becomes 18.7 mpg at best.
Based on your 3000 miles per annum and 22mpg [on petrol], if you estimate £1000 for the conversion, it will take 9729 miles / 3.24 years to break even with the cost of conversion, you will then save £308 per annum. That is running on 100% gas, which I believe is not always feasible as some engines will not start on gas or run on gas until warmed up, although some will. Not all filling stations sell LPG so there will be times when you could need to run on petrol.

If you want to run the domestic equipment from the same supply as the engine then you will need a special tank to take the LPG in liquid form for the engine and in gas form for the domestic supply.

I do not understand your use of the word ‘cosmetic’ regarding the supercharger / turbocharger? But I have no doubt that fitting one would involve an increase in insurance premiums – if you can get cover.

Personally, I think your best bet would be to look into getting the ECU ‘chipped’

Frank

I'm sorry Frank but you really shouldn't be paying 70p per litre for LPG in the current climate. The only place this is likely at the moment, is on the motorway. Cheap is 46p, 54p is normal, 56p is sort of average and 60-74p is getting very expensive.
avatar
mattpc
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 69
Joined : 2014-11-16
Location : Manchester
Auto-Sleeper : Clubman 2.0 LPG
Vehicle Year : 1992

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Advice on LPG conversion and Turbo installati

Post by mattpc on Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:53 pm

samleeds wrote:Ive just spoken to the main man at a mapping company and he seemed very well educated and knowledgeable. His advise was leave well alone. The LPG option gives a reduced power rating to the engine and the need to flip back and forward from petrol and gas wasnt feesible. The mapping question would be expensive and with those older engines the benefit would be only 5 to 10% increase in BHP which would be wiped out by the drop in LPG power. 

Decisison made, live with it and find a way to reduce the payload by not using a scooter on the back, buying electric bikes instead. Job done.

I do think that's probably a good idea for now. LPG is perfectly feasible but it will take you a while for it to pay for itself if you are only doing leisure miles. If I were having a new install fitted, I'd be budgeting about £1000 to get it done properly.
avatar
mattpc
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 69
Joined : 2014-11-16
Location : Manchester
Auto-Sleeper : Clubman 2.0 LPG
Vehicle Year : 1992

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Advice on LPG conversion and Turbo installati

Post by boxerman on Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:19 pm

mattpc wrote:
I'm sorry Frank but you really shouldn't be paying 70p per litre for LPG in the current climate. The only place this is likely at the moment, is on the motorway. Cheap is 46p, 54p is normal, 56p is sort of average and 60-74p is getting very expensive.

I don't content I came up with that figure from a quick internet search, which is why I re-did the calcs using your figure as you are more knowledgeable on this than I am.
It was the installation cost which stopped me from having the Boxer converted. The first quote was £1600, but prices have come down since then. My estimate of £1000 seems to match yours.
The ideal would be buying a van that had already been converted.

Frank
avatar
boxerman
Donator
Donator

Male

Posts : 3827
Joined : 2011-08-21
Location : Preston Lancs
Auto-Sleeper : '95 Symphony
Vehicle Year : 1995

View user profile http://www.rtmr.org

Back to top Go down

Re: Advice on LPG conversion and Turbo installati

Post by mattpc on Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:47 pm

That's what I did Frank. Saying that, it wasn't working properly and I took it to an expert to rectify the problems. To be fair, when I bought the van lpg was about 70p per litre. It's been a massive bonus getting the fuel so much cheaper than expected.

If anyone is thinking of doing the conversion in the future, my top tip would be research the installer you are thinking of using. Don't go with the cheapest. Google the companies and see what customers have written about them. Visit them, get a detailed quote. The equipment required is not particularly expensive. A lot of what you pay is the labour charges. This is fine if the system is installed to a high standard and carefully tested. However, if it's poor kit thrown in to the van in a few hours, it's very likely it will have to go back to a more reputable installer for correction. Then you are throwing good money after bad.
avatar
mattpc
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 69
Joined : 2014-11-16
Location : Manchester
Auto-Sleeper : Clubman 2.0 LPG
Vehicle Year : 1992

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Advice on LPG conversion and Turbo installati

Post by Greyhound on Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:18 pm

Just as an add on - if you do go LPG and want to go abroad, don't forget you can't use the tunnel and have to go by ferry instead.

Small issue but worth remembering.
avatar
Greyhound
Member
Member

Male

Posts : 484
Joined : 2016-02-29
Location : Essex
Auto-Sleeper : Symbol
Vehicle Year : 2017

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Advice on LPG conversion and Turbo installati

Post by daisy mae on Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:18 am

If it ain`t broke don`t fix it comes to mind,

Sorry guys but it seems to be the men that want to alter things, my motto is ,if it was built and designed that way that is the way it is meant to be, I steer clear of possible pitfalls. after hearing of the problems associated with more modern vehicles / motorhome habitation side as well than the one I have, I am sticking with mine, as it was built.

Each to their own. up!
avatar
daisy mae
Donator
Donator

Female

Posts : 4150
Joined : 2013-02-04
Location : Leicestershire
Auto-Sleeper : Anniversary Clubman
Vehicle Year : Oct. 2003 VW 2.5 TDI

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Advice on LPG conversion and Turbo installati

Post by Bagabargin on Thu Sep 22, 2016 5:00 am

The daisy mae wrote:If it ain`t broke don`t fix it comes to mind,

Sorry guys but it seems to be the men that want to alter things, my motto is ,if it was built and designed that way that is the way it is meant to be, I steer clear of possible pitfalls. after hearing of the problems associated with more modern vehicles / motorhome habitation side as well than the one I have, I am sticking with mine, as it was built.

Each to their own. up!

Apart from the hab area ? Eh Margret ?winkssnigger
avatar
Bagabargin
Member
Member

Female

Posts : 103
Joined : 2015-06-03
Location : Peterborough
Auto-Sleeper : Gatcombe
Vehicle Year : 2003

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Advice on LPG conversion and Turbo installati

Post by daisy mae on Thu Sep 22, 2016 7:27 am

I take your point Bagabargin     hugegrins
avatar
daisy mae
Donator
Donator

Female

Posts : 4150
Joined : 2013-02-04
Location : Leicestershire
Auto-Sleeper : Anniversary Clubman
Vehicle Year : Oct. 2003 VW 2.5 TDI

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Advice on LPG conversion and Turbo installati

Post by NORGIL on Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:08 am

The figure of 20 -22 mpg sounds very poor to me even fully laden.  I am lucky to have a very good local garage, my first move would be a very good service with particular attention to filters and the fuel system, make sure there is no brake drag etc

NORGIL
Donator
Donator

Male

Posts : 484
Joined : 2015-10-08
Location : Solihull
Auto-Sleeper : Clubman GL
Vehicle Year : 2001

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Advice on LPG conversion and Turbo installati

Post by Onlysme on Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:42 am

There was a survey done by the Autosleepers Owners Club sometime ago, with members listing their vehicles and the actual mpg achieved. 

not sure if I can link to it but Ill give it a go:

http://www.asoc.uk.com/tech_group/fuel_info.htm

Makes for an interesting read on what to expect from particular models being driven in the real world.
avatar
Onlysme
Donator
Donator

Male

Posts : 44
Joined : 2016-08-20
Location : Surrey
Auto-Sleeper : Gatcombe VW 2.5 TDI
Vehicle Year : 2002

View user profile

Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum