Gas fire blows out

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Post by Peterm on Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:38 pm

At the recent excellent Chester Rally I couldn't get my gas fire to light in the wind. My van is a 06 Nuevo ES.
At one point the fire made a loud explosion which several other vans in the vicinity heard. I was surprised to find that several other members in different makes of van were having the same trouble. I cannot believe that AS does not know about this and have a sure and certain remedy, considering the problem must have existed for years.

Anybody have any direct experience of this, please.

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Post by roli on Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:54 pm

It wasnt too windy Peter so I suspect you have air in the system which can seem to take ages to clear. I didnt hear it though, mind you I didnt hear the van that left very early either.

Our fire can be a pain if its windy and we park in the "wrong direction"

Neil had problems with his also.

We think this venue would be better earlier in the year so folks can have more time in Chester, Think Dave will run it again.

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Post by whisky on Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:12 pm

Hi Peter.

The Carver type gas fire is a balanced flue system. This means that the combustion air is drawn into the fire from under the van, then through the burner, mixed with the gas, burnt and flue gas exits the terminal on the top of the van. On occasions with odd wind conditions it causes an imbalance within the system If the knob is kept in a depressed position letting gas into the fire without igniting it can make for a backfire in the cast iron burner chamber.(check spark igniter gap) This would be as Roli noted when the wind was not to excessive. (park up position to the wind direction can cause this.) If the fire was lite and the wind was a bit stronger and the burner goes out, the burner thermocouple would cool and prevent any more gas entering the fire. The fire would go out resulting in a fail safe situation for your protection.

Hope this explains a little.

Cheers. Whisky.[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]



PS. Direct wind face on to the water boiler flue can also give problems with the burner sooting up. Wind eh. Park up with it in mind.


Last edited by whisky on Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:40 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Peterm on Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:08 am

Thanks, Roli and whisky,

Sorry guys, I don't really go with the 'it's not a fault, it's a feature' argument. When I have paid £35000 for a van I expect the fire to light under any conditions. I feel further miffed because this fault was reported under guarantee, and I was told it had been corrected. Of course I didn't meet windy conditions again until the AGM -both of them-after the guarantee ran out. I am not sure that this is a directional problem. It seems to happen in any wind above Force 4.

Now I would call an exploding gas fire which emits all kinds of fumes a health hazard and a recall by the factory job. I am always totally amazed at rallies by the high percentage of people who have only just returned from the factory after having major leaks, equipment failures and so on, nearly but not quite dealt with. Even at this rally I met a few people with loose windows, warped doors and collapsing knife trays. It should not happen. Is 'get it right first time' too modern a slogan for AS?

End of rant, but I really don't want a mea culpa resolution to this. Roger, his own self, told me which way round to park, and I wasn't going to move because of the slimy conditions. Same on CC sites - not much choice of aspect. Is there an actual physical cure I can do so that no matter which way I point, and no matter what the wind, Mrs M can keep warm when there is no hook up? I find ASOC members a really docile lot of AS groupies sometimes. If Neil cannot get his fire sorted, what hope for the irks?
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Post by zappy61 on Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:00 am

I would not classify the Caver fire as a 'balanced flue, type. A balanced flue' takes combustion air from external source and is sealed not to to take any from inside the van. The Carver I had was not sealed to the outside but had a vent very close to the burner in the floor. I never had trouble lighting it in the 9 years I had it but I did with the fridge. To prevent explosions or gas entering the habitation area the burner is protected by a flame failure device know as a thermocouple. When ignition is established a pilot flame plays on the end of the thermocouple providing a small electrical current to keep the main gas valve open and allow gas to enter the burner where it is ignited by the pilot light. If the pilot light is extinguished the main valve closes and the fire goes out this can be due to excessive draught but more often it can be a faulty thermocouple, or the pilot flame is not long enough to keep heat on the end of the thermocouple in draughty conditions. Relighting after the flame as gone out should not be attempted for 3 minutes, the amount of time it takes for the thermocouple to cool and close the main valve otherwise you can get a build up of gas which when the igniter is pressed will cause a small explosion which probably happened in this instance. I would get the fire checked especially the thermocouple and pilot light.

Graham
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Post by whisky on Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:05 pm

Hi Graham.
I think you will find out that it should be a balanced flue appliance. The incoming air should come from outside of the van. I do know that quite a few vans have the fire not fitted to well and that leaves a gap around the air inlet in the van floor. If you investigate further you will see that there is no way that combustion air can get to the burner apart from the air inlet. you will also see that the burner is completely enclosed in the heat exchanger. If the burner was visable from inside of the van and combustion air was supplied from inside of the van the flue would be called an open flue and have to be fitted with a draught diverter. The older type Paloma 5 was of this type.
Whisky.
PS. Might be a good idea to seal the gap in your floor where the air inlet passes through it.

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Post by zappy61 on Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:12 pm

Hi Whisky,

You are correct for the later models but Peter doesn't say which one he has. I don't have a gas fire in the present M/H just electric and diesel. I still think he ought to get the fire checked out for the pilot light and thermocouple.

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Post by whisky on Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:30 pm

Hi Graham.
Yes quite agree with you there. Sounds to me that Peter had problems just lighting his fire so his mini explosion was most likely caused by the control knob being pressed in letting gas into the fire but the igniter not lighting it up straight away, so when it did catch, boom.
Can understand him being a little miffed that the wind effects the fires in this way. The diesel type van heaters do seem to be the best option. I'm not to bothered about the electric as I prefer the quite cl's with just the basics. Like my solar and all that.

Cheers. Whisky. up!

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Post by zappy61 on Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:15 pm

Hi Whisky,

The diesel (Eberspacher) heating is great especially when travelling or when we are off EHU which is not too often. When we are on EHU we have to pay for the electricity so we may as well use it. So I fitted an electric convector heater that I got from B & Q for £10 in a sale, it has 3 heat settings 750W, 1kW and 2 kW. I wired it through a Siemens RDH10RF remote controller and transmitter so that we can choose the temperature according to our comfort level without getting out of bed! (lazy or what?). At night we can set the temperature back to around 14/15 deg. then turn it back up in the morning. It works a treat and keeps the temperature exact, with no worries about fumes, no noise, as with blown air or fan convector's and is completely safe but you do need an empty space for it. You can also use it for frost protection ad its lowest setting of 5 deg.
Here is a picture of it.

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Graham
PS Perhaps I should put it in Accessories?
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Post by whisky on Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:53 pm

Hi Graham .

Thats a great idea. It should be on a posting of its own. Some of the members only look at their special section so would miss this. Like the idea of the programmable room stat as a controller. 45 years in the heating trade and that one past me by ( must be slipping. will have to give myself a slap) As for "lazy or what" Don't think so, Cosy and Comfy. Yes.

Nice One. Cheers. Whisky.[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

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Post by Peterm on Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:57 am

I have found the Truma S 3002 handbook, and the problem of the fire blowing out is highlighted. All due to the roof cowl, not the inlet. So AS must have known about it when they sold the vans concerned. The solution is to order a cowl extension AKV. Part no 30010. This is a 15cm straight screw in extension to the chimney. I have ordered one for £8.58 all in from Weekend leisure. Leasurebuy.co.uk. So I will keep you all informed.

What rankles is Auto Sleeper dealers propagating this tosh about inlet baffles, and pretending to fit one (I have checked, they didn't). For the price of this part, about £3, you would think that AS would supply one. However the manual says it must be removed from the roof when moving. If they had printed this info, then the sales of all vans fitted with the Truma would have fallen significantly, probably.

Thank you all for your input and concern.

Peter Murphy
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Post by whisky on Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:25 am

HI Peter.
Good news that you have sorted your problem. Looks like it was an imbalance in the inlet/flue. Just at the other end. Agree that AS should supply this part.
Maybe you could take a photo and let us all know what this part looks like?
Whisky. up!

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Post by zappy61 on Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:45 am

Hi Whisky,

Yes the plumbing and heating industry is one of my 'lives' also, from apprentice through to teaching/instructing in the Water industry. I will try to put an article together on the convector heater in the next couple of weeks. I'm glad Peter has sorted his problem out.

Regards,

Graham
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Post by whisky on Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:58 pm

Hi Graham.
A lifetime in the Plumbing/Heating/Gas and Oil trade. Apprentice at 15. Foreman at 21. Supervisor at 30. Contracts manager at 34. Manager at 40. New company manager at 50. Manager at old company again at 52. Teaching at FE at 55. City and Guilds Assessor at 56.
At 60 next month still a wage slave. 5 to go. Hooray.
Whisky. up!

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Post by zappy61 on Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:54 am

Just to let you know they have a thermostatic convector heater in Lidl with remote control with 3 heat settings and fros guard at £29.99 see [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. They have pinched my idea smile!

Graham
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Post by murph on Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:49 pm

Hi folks,
Back on line again, with regard to the Truma heater blowing out, I had the same problem at one stage wilst in the UK, booked it into Marquis Preston but they wouldnt even look at it that day, they suggested it was the curcuit board, however before I got to the appointed day for repair it fixed itself so I assume it was either air in the system or the wind in the exhaust. as we use autogas and the cylinder is never disconected the latter would seem more likley.
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Post by deckie on Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:16 pm

Hi Murph,

Welcome back ... (deckie off topic again hugegrins )

Brian

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Post by Peterm on Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:32 pm

The 'cure' had arrived. It is a 15cm long grey plastic pipe, 5.5cm wide, male thread at one end, female at the other. Stamped Truma.

Unscrew the cowl, screw in the plastic pipe, replace the cowl and hey-presto.

I cannot see why it should work, but as soon as we get some decent wind I will test it. It will be interesting to see how far it projects over the top of the Nuevo.

Thanks to everyone for helping.

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Post by andygump on Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:47 pm

I had one, it came with Eriba Troll that I had. Never had wind problems(of that sort) smile! smile!



Cheers

Andy up!
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Post by whisky on Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:19 am

Hi PeterM.
Any chance of a photo of this part before you fit it?
I would like to see exactly what it looks like and try and work out what it does.
Cheers. Whisky. think_smiley_46

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Post by Peterm on Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:55 pm

Whisky

beachball
Cannot upload a photo.
You really don't need one. It is as described. A 15cm grey plastic pipe with an external thread at on end that screws into the pipe coming through the roof. The Cowl then screws into the top of the pipe. I'm sure you could make one for yourself. Unscrew the cowl and take a look. Buy a pipe of the same diameter about 5.5cm, 15cm long and make it fit.
According to the handbook you are supposed to remove the pipe before moving, even though it seems quite a solid job. I suspect it may be because it increases the height of the vehicle.

( Edit. I have just fitted it, and it does increase the vans height by about 4inches. Took all of 30 seconds once I had got the ladder up.)

Let's wait and see this works before I come up with one that is mountable and demountable through the HEKI. I envisage a plastic pipe on a fishing rod. But then most of my inventions seem to feature fishing tackle.

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Post by Peterm on Sun Nov 27, 2011 1:11 pm

Just tried out the Truma fire with and without the flue extension in the current half gale. Without the extra 6" the fire blows out, with the 6" extension it doesn't. I'm sure there is a DIY solution which will give the same result.

Problem solved.
Thanks to everyone.


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Post by Guest on Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:54 pm

As well as the "AKV Cowl Extension" (30010-20800 - possible part-number) I fitted the "Truma Cowl top T3" (30700-03) which if I remember correctly was suggested for when using a heater on the move - though I would NOT do that! The extra cowl top is combined with the original one and the extension and has stopped wind problems. The Truma website has the parts details. I ordered the parts through my local motorhome/Truma dealer. Parts came to £16.19 (2009).
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Post by murph on Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:50 am

Hi All,
I have had this problem in the past and to try and fix it bought a Truma flue extension which didnt work, I suspect because of the high ribs on the side of the roof on our Lancashire, so I decided to try an old fashioned revolving cowl, and this morning we have enough wind ( about force 5) for a resonable test, it seems to work.
It comprises the truma extension with the thick end cut off and the outside filed smooth, and lubricated with engine oil, I then purchased a 112degree bend ( a right angle might be better) and scrounged a short piece of plastic downspout, (the pipe that carries water from your gutter down the side of your house,) from a local plumber. This fits quite neatly over the modified Truma extension and carries the bend and a further piece of pipe carrying a wind vane, so that it revolves in the wind and blows the outlet away from the wind. You can see it in the photo of the van posted on page 6 of show us your Autosleeper in the fun chat forum. A bit untidy but if it means we have gas powered heat when we need it I can put up with that.


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Post by roli on Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:06 pm

I noticed it on the photo you you posted showing the van roof and decided not to ask in case you thought I was thick !!

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