Help needed valuing a possible purchase.

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Help needed valuing a possible purchase.

Post by csx355 on Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:29 pm

Hi all first post here so go easy.  Long story short - I have the opportunity to purchase a 1994 VW Clubman GL 64,000 miles. The van has no current mot and has got a little rust on the cab - between the cab roof and monocoque, fuel filler, door edges front and rear. Basically the cab needs a spray. The body is good, again could do with painting being a little sun crazed and the decals are faded. 

The arrangement with the current owner is that I make an offer based on what I think the van is worth. 

I took it for MOT and it failed needing front shocks and one or two other bits and pieces totalling £340 including test.  Possibly needing inner sills, some other welding and an exhaust next year. It would also need a full service - the motor, 2.4 diesel with an aftermarket TB turbo conversion seems lively and quiet but would benefit from oil and filters. The interior seems sound, clean and tidy.

So, given that I would need to spend £2-3000 on the bus to bring her up to scratch what would be a fair price to pay as it is?

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Re: Help needed valuing a possible purchase.

Post by mikejack on Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:22 pm

No idea on price sorry but there is a tidy looking 1995 one on ebay that is listed with 73k miles excellent condition for £11998

Mike
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Re: Help needed valuing a possible purchase.

Post by -mojo- on Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:37 am

csx355 wrote:has got a little rust on the cab - between the cab roof and monocoque

Unfortunately this is one of the worst places for dealing with rust - if it has got between the two, or if it has started to rust from the inside out, it is very difficult to deal with in a way that will last long-term.
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Re: Help needed valuing a possible purchase.

Post by m8form8 on Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:05 am

If it is a project you want to take on, and can do the work it has a low value as it is, but unloved old motors are a lot of work to get back to good condition. Rust between joints is very hard to treat, once it starts! Often what you see is the tip of the iceberg! I suspect it is not a commercially viable renovation project.

At the end of the day, any renovation project becomes a labour of love not a means of saving money on a better condition working van. A fair price is more down to how much you want to take it on, as i suspect few will.  confused3
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Re: Help needed valuing a possible purchase.

Post by csx355 on Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:07 am

Thanks for the replies - the problem is you don't seem to see "do'er uppers" that often - most of the vans are in very good condition at dealers and fetching between £9 and £14,000 ish.  The rust makes the cab look scruffy but is not through the sheet and looks worse than it is. It will never be a mint van but with time and money will be a decent, usable camper. 

I'm hoping that most of the roof rot isunder the big, fat, rubber seal gubbins that covers the join between the VW cab roof and the monocoque. That said it's still a risk and the bus has no MOT - yet. 

I will try and post some pics later. So looking at it another way if I was selling it as described what would you guys feel comfortable paying for it. £4000, £5000,£6000, £7000, £8000? As I said I'm going to spend some money on it - just not quite sure how much its going to need to make it tidy and roadworthy, Im guessing £2-3000." />

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Re: Help needed valuing a possible purchase.

Post by csx355 on Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:08 am

" />
Sorry - here is another pic of the door edge.

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Re: Help needed valuing a possible purchase.

Post by mikethebike on Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:10 am

Personally i would not buy without FSH or very good history. It sounds like a job for a good project,if you have the time and money.
My gut feeling is it will be a money trap.
Decide on a very low price if thats what you want.

Regards

Micky
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Re: Help needed valuing a possible purchase.

Post by m8form8 on Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:41 am

If I wanted the work,had a barn to work on it I wouldn't offer more than 3 figures and take on board if it fails an mot drastically next year it will probably cost you lots to have it taken away. As you say it will make a usable camper with a few quid spent, but for how long is the question and how much use will you actually get out of it? 
Camper van hire is about a thousand a week, if your only going to use it 3 weeks is it worth all the work? 
Best..
rolleyes
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Re: Help needed valuing a possible purchase.

Post by daisy mae on Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:54 am

I looked at a Trophy in worse condition than that and she wanted £8000, i walked away, much better to spend more than buy a money pit which after a time would probably be scrap, sorry but that is my mho, if you can do all the work yourself and have the time and money that may be a different thing, if the cab and body is good and the inside needed renovating that it is a different ball game altogether, 

Have you checked underneath? 

Good luck with whatever you decide, there are better ones out there.
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Re: Help needed valuing a possible purchase.

Post by csx355 on Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:36 am

Many thanks - all - I have to admit to being a bit of a project sucker - cars, motorbikes, Houses - now that's the way to really spend money. I have restored a T25 Devon in the past that needed signifcant panel replacement, full spray and mechanicals. It's not about getting things cheap (although I love a bargain)  just really hate seeing things go to waste. Call it a hobby I suppose.  
" />

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Re: Help needed valuing a possible purchase.

Post by m8form8 on Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:10 pm

My mother hates seeing things go to waste to, i really have to make sure I never take her in a pub at closing time! hugegrins
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Re: Help needed valuing a possible purchase.

Post by Paulmold on Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:16 pm

In all honesty you don't see many rough motorhomes but just lately there have been a few. One recent post showed a Harmony with major rot and a list of 'advisories' on the last MOT and this Symphony came on Ebay yesterday, I have never seen a Boxer in such poor condition....

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PEUGEOT-BOXER-AUTOSLEEPER-SYMPHONY-LPG-MOTORHOME-CAMPER-no-SWAP-OR-PX-WELCOME-/131462931610?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1e9bcd249a

about £3k lower than a decent one, you have to ask is it worth doing it up?

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Re: Help needed valuing a possible purchase.

Post by mikejack on Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:29 pm

If that black trim is anything like the one on my medallion i do not think it can be removed it seems to be bonded on before the back. Looks like its been bodged with black sealant too as there should be a gap that directs water down onto the screen corners.

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Re: Help needed valuing a possible purchase.

Post by jt2011 on Mon Mar 23, 2015 6:56 pm

I would say around £6000 is a fair valuation mainly due to the volkswagen being the most sought after base vehicle.

If it was sold via auction or put on ebay it would make that sort of money as there would still be profit in that vehicle for thr right buyer.

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Re: Help needed valuing a possible purchase.

Post by Shuggiegreen on Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:23 pm

I dont think the VW is beyond saving and there is a lot of fun to be had in a running restoration.Most of the rust is likely to be cosmetic rather than structural if you buy for £7,000 you have a chance to bring the vehicle back to life and possibly increase its value and remember everything doesnt have to be done at once.You may or may not be aware that VW has a big scene and there are lots of meets through the summer.Type into your browser s.s.v.c. then go to projects and see what these guys restore it should give you the confidence to tackle yours keep us up to date on what you decide.
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Re: Help needed valuing a possible purchase.

Post by csx355 on Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:57 pm

Phew I thought for a moment or two there that I was in a special world of my own - I understand the pitfalls and potential for disaster - (read expense) but as I said I'm pretty much resigned to initially spending £2-3K to start with. Roughly  £6-800 on welding, £1500 on paint and probably the thick end of a £1000 on MOT servicing etc. Experience tells me that could be more. 

I don't think that I have painted too black a picture of the old girl - she starts first time hot or cold, drives and handles really well, pulls like a Bonobo Chimp and is clean, tidy, fresh and original inside so I am a bit surprised by the low values - it's good to have a reality check but how many of these would change hands at a £1000 with less than 70,000 miles and 12months mot costing £340? 

The black trim around the cab / body does worry me a bit but the rust is not 'through' and the staining does make it look pretty bad on white. If anyone could say for sure wether this rubber is easily removable / replaceable that would be useful. 

I think, what I was expecting or hoping, were figures around the jt2011 and Shuggiegreen values, I was more worried that someone would come back at £8000 plus. 

I too hate the thought of waisted beer :-) there may well be a few sunk before  this project is through. 

Once again many thanks for all your input and advice - it has given me a starting point and if the forum wants to know progress I'm happy to keep you informed.

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Re: Help needed valuing a possible purchase.

Post by daisy mae on Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:13 pm

Please do.

Good luck,
Kind regards,
Margaret
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Re: Help needed valuing a possible purchase.

Post by Shuggiegreen on Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:30 am

csx355. On the rubber band where the cab joins the rear why dont you ring the factory and ask them I have found the factory very helpful.If you purchase the vehicle post before pics and pics as you go along I think it should be a really good project Good Luck.
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Re: Help needed valuing a possible purchase.

Post by m8form8 on Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:47 am

Paulmold wrote:In all honesty you don't see many rough motorhomes but just lately there have been a few. One recent post showed a Harmony with major rot and a list of 'advisories' on the last MOT and this Symphony came on Ebay yesterday, I have never seen a Boxer in such poor condition....

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PEUGEOT-BOXER-AUTOSLEEPER-SYMPHONY-LPG-MOTORHOME-CAMPER-no-SWAP-OR-PX-WELCOME-/131462931610?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1e9bcd249a

about £3k lower than a decent one, you have to ask is it worth doing it up?
 
I wonder if more and more rough examples will start to show up, just because the popularity of the motor home trend started around the mid to late 90s. I expect a lot of those who bought them then were retired and if they have kept them but not been able to look after them or lost interest, then about now they will start to show up for sale. The life of an un cared for one is I suspect going to be around 25 years if not kept up. I guess it depends on how soon they are rescued by someone who puts the work in to keep them up to scratch.  confused3 confused3 confused3 I guess with the VW parts are still available and they have a niche following but with others? You indeed have to ask is it worth doing it up?
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Re: Help needed valuing a possible purchase.

Post by Shuggiegreen on Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:13 am

You can purchase most parts for the T4 cab from breakers so you can pick non rusted ones then you only require to paint them I got a bonnet with absolutely no rust for £20 my son sprayed it and I put AS decals on it hey presto a new bonnet for £30. I would be surprised if the chassis needs welding it will be more likely to be surface rust.A dirty job but rub all the rust down treat with Por and then under seal job done.I havnt seen the van but I do believe it could be brought back to a very high standard as far the black rubber there will be a way to remove it but it would be good if it would come off without damage so it could be re-used.
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Re: Help needed valuing a possible purchase.

Post by -mojo- on Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:54 pm

I must admit I'm a bit surprised at someone in the trade giving a value as high as £6k - but that's "to the right person".

I would have no issues at all with the door, or any of the lower bodywork. That can all be fixed for not a lot of money, and if it's done well it should be good for years.

The cab roof rust is a completely different matter. It looks to me like it has pinholed through from behind but, even if not, if it's originating from the joint between cab roof and monocoque it will be a devil of a job to fix, because if you cut rusted metal out you can't weld good metal back without damaging the monocoque. The only way to do it ~properly~ is to remove the body, repair the roof and put the body back. I can only recall one thread on here in which that was attempted, and IIRC the thread never reached a successful conclusion (though that particular van was a basket case anyway).

I should add that I've no doubt someone could buy that at £6k, bodge the roof so that it looked Ok and turn it round for a very decent profit, but I would expect the rust to be back in a year or so...
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Re: Help needed valuing a possible purchase.

Post by Shuggiegreen on Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:17 pm

mojo. It is hard to know without physically seeing the roof how badly damaged it is but even if it is rotten it is not beyond saving if you can do the job yourself where it becomes uneconomical is if you have to pay to get it sorted out. I would be interested to find out why it has rusted and where the water that caused it is coming from in order to rectify it. I certainly think that for around 7k it could be worth the effort there is no point in a bodge it needs to be fixed properly and if it is the van has many years of life left in it.
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Re: Help needed valuing a possible purchase.

Post by Paulmold on Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:24 pm

The rather rotten Symphony I linked to earlier has been taken off sale and changed to an auction. Be interesting to see what price people see it worth. It was for sale at £5495.

New link

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PEUGEOT-BOXER-AUTOSLEEPER-SYMPHONY-LPG-MOTORHOME-CAMPER-no-SWAP-OR-PX-WELCOME-/131465347888?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1e9bf20330

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Re: Help needed valuing a possible purchase.

Post by Shuggiegreen on Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:41 pm

Paul without wishing to upset anyone with a Pug or a Fiat is not a good comparison with a VW that is borne out by the huge World wide VW camper scene.There are countless magazines on the subject but not a single one for Pugs or Fiats I know its hard to believe but good restored VW split screen campers have been sold for over £40,000 and they are imported into the UK from all over the world and bay windows selling for £20,000 are not unheard of and now good T25 can sell from 8 to 10k so in my opinion in years to come T4s will hold there values.You only need to visit any of the UK shows to see the fervour for VWs if you would like to see it from the comfort of your arm chair go to you tube.So whatever that rusty Pug sells for it will give no real indication of the value of a VW in a similar condition.
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Re: Help needed valuing a possible purchase.

Post by Paulmold on Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:13 pm

Oh I'm fully aware of the following that old VW's have, what I don't understand is why. Why would you pay up to £40,000 for an unreliable vehicle (I am talking about the split-screens and bays) when you could buy a damn good motorhome be it VW or otherwise. I drive a VW car (it's the fifth VW group motor I've owned in the last 15 years) because they are good, reliable cars. I like monocoques because of the no damp reputation. Doesn't mean I would pay good money for one that could be a money-pit. Get it cheap enough and do the work yourself if you have the skills (I don't)and yes it could be a good van for you for many years but for me, no.

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