Is the EU really the road to nowhere?

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Re: Is the EU really the road to nowhere?

Post by mikethebike on Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:49 pm

One line post 15. Lost in all the other over the top information.

Regards
Mike
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Re: Is the EU really the road to nowhere?

Post by mikethebike on Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:57 pm

Hi Ian you put in a nutshell. You can go all over the EU. Yes ,but you pay your way, you don't take advantage of their generous benefits and free housing. Because you would not get it.The members that go from the UK are in the main wealthy tourists and purchase property paid from their savings.
Don't compare apples with pears.
I think you want to talk to the Mayor of Calais,for an unbiased view.

Best regards


Mike


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Re: Is the EU really the road to nowhere?

Post by mikethebike on Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:05 pm

Hi Ian, Read Bernie Eclestone's view in the papers today.

regards

Mike


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Re: Is the EU really the road to nowhere?

Post by Dutto on Mon Nov 03, 2014 11:16 pm

mikethebike wrote:   Hi Ian,  Read Bernie Eclestone's view in the papers today.

regards

Mike


Mike,

If it's the same billionaire Bernie Ecclestone who faced a charge of bribery in Germany and then paid a £60 million fine to stay out of jail, why would his view on the EU carry any weight with me; an impoverished but law-abiding pensioner?

Mr Ecclestone's animosity towards the EU is a long standing situation that seems to have been exacerbated after he was charged with "bribery and incitement to breach of trust" in Germany.  Although Mr Ecclestone dodged the trial by paying the £60 million fine, the man Mr Ecclestone bribed with £27 million is currently serving an eight and a half year sentence in Germany.

To be fair, Mr Ecclestone denied "bribing" the banker concerned.  Apparently he paid the banker £27 million "to stop him making unfounded allegations about Ecclestone's tax affairs".  (Yeah!  Right!  The man is starting to make Robert Maxwell look like a saint!)

Could it be that Mr Ecclestone thinks it could be easier to influence people in the UK (where he still bases his F1 business) if the UK leaves the EU? scratch head

Best regards,
drinksallround 
Ian

References:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/bernie-ecclestones-trial-dropped-by-german-court-after-his-60m-payment-is-accepted-9649461.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/leisure/11204574/Third-world-Europe-is-finished-says-Ecclestone.html

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Re: Is the EU really the road to nowhere?

Post by groundhog on Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:33 am

You should have seen what Paddington Bear said now that marmalade can't be called marmalade anymore, he was furious so they say in the papers snigger
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Re: Is the EU really the road to nowhere?

Post by Dutto on Tue Nov 04, 2014 10:32 am

groundhog wrote:You should have seen what Paddington Bear said now that marmalade can't be called marmalade anymore, he was furious so they say in the papers snigger
That was a cruel Post.   tap_fingers   tap_fingers  Pistols at dawn I think!!!  think_smiley_46   think_smiley_46  

I even went and searched for the subject .... lol4 lol4 lol4 lol4

.... because I thought "Maybe, just maybe."  Well, you never know do you? hugegrins

Well done! allthumbz allthumbz

Best regards,
best_friends
Ian

PS

There are EU rules about marmalade and jams though! allthumbz   allthumbz  

http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/consumers/product_labelling_and_packaging/l21134_en.htm

At the moment I have a jar of "Confiture d'Olives" (Olive Jam) in the cupboard that I bought for when friends visit us at Christmas.

Like ourselves, our friends are pretty adventurous when it domes to food so I am waiting to see what a jam made out of olives tastes like; but I'm pretty glad to learn that at least Grandma's Recipe will have been properly controlled. hugegrins hugegrins

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Re: Is the EU really the road to nowhere?

Post by daisy mae on Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:00 am

Does anyone else think that this has gone beyond the ridiculous, not reading anymore, like I said previously it is boring, Ian you are obviously labour through and through and what I know of others who are /where labour, my father included,  they are always right,?   snoozing rest on your laurels and put this to bed.
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You will want to read this though!

Post by Dutto on Tue Nov 04, 2014 1:05 pm

Hi there,

In view of the expressions of praise for Norway I expect all of the EU detractors (especially those who want to pull this Thread) to read this article from The National Library of Norway.

http://www.beaconforfreedom.org/liste.html?tid=415&art_id=475

Enjoy!  It's easily read and really informative. allthumbz allthumbz

Best regards,
drinksallround

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Re: Is the EU really the road to nowhere?

Post by Dutto on Tue Nov 04, 2014 4:06 pm

daisy mae wrote:.........   Ian you are obviously labour through and through and what I know of others who are /where labour, my father included,  they are always right,?   ......

Hi there,

I'm afraid that you have caught me out there!  I have checked all of my Posts on this subject and I cannot find one single Post where I have praised the actions of either a Labour Government or a Labour Minister or indeed the Labour Party.

However, I am guilty of:

o  Praising the actions of a Conservative Prime Minister ...

"I think that we will all agree that it is a fantastic legacy for a UK Prime Minister to be known as the person
who launched the process that has reduced the UK's sulphur emissions; so probably for the only time in my life
I have to say "Thank-you Mrs. Thatcher!", because she was the Prime Minister concerned."

o  Agreeing with a very recent comment made by Ken Clarke, a Conservative MP and a former Chancellor of the Exchequer:

"If you're going to have a sensible single market,
if we want to compete with the Americans and the Chinese and so on and modern world,
we need the free movement of labour.
All our companies, multinational companies, will go spare if you start interfering with that."


And underlying all of this is my undying gratitude to Conservative Prime Minister Edward Heath who gave the nation the chance to join the EU when his Conservative Government held the referendum in 1973.

Please do not confuse criticising the current government, or explaining the benefits of EU membership, with supporting any UK political party.

Best regards,
drinksallround

PS

"Equal pay for women" is in the news today because apparently the law is being flouted by employers.

The current UK Government Cabinet consists of:

o  17 Men (5 of whom are Old Etonians), and,

o  5 Women.

At the last count there were over 30 million women in the UK and about 15,000 Old Etonians.

Does pointing this out make me "labour through and through"?  I don't think so! tap_fingers



References:

https://www.gov.uk/government/ministers

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2581299/Eton-mess-Michael-Gove-attacks-ridiculous-number-wealthy-ministers-Cabinet-claims-exclusive-developed-world.html

http://www.etoncollege.com/TheOEA.aspx

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Re: Is the EU really the road to nowhere?

Post by roli on Tue Nov 04, 2014 4:58 pm

Come on now lets drop the UK Party Politics, the subject is the EEC

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Re: Is the EU really the road to nowhere?

Post by Dutto on Wed Nov 05, 2014 3:04 am

Hi there,

Today has been a great day for us Europhiles!

Today's Daily Mail published extracts from a study made by the University College London as follows ....

"European immigrants to the UK pay more in taxes than they receive in benefits, according to fresh research."

"European immigrants made a positive fiscal contribution of £4.4 billion to the UK between 1995 and 2011, .... "

The article continues ....

"... whereas immigrants from outside the European Economic Area (EEA) made a negative fiscal contribution of £118 billion."


The article also states ....

"Looking more closely at recent arrivals, between 2001 and 2011, the picture improved for both EEA and non-EEA immigrants,
with European arrivals making a positive fiscal contribution of £20 billion
and those from outside Europe making a positive net payment of £5 billion."

I think that these findings by University College London at least cast "reasonable doubt" on the current hate campaign being waged against the free movement of EU citizens and the impact of EU immigrants on the UK economy.

With regard to whether or not we should leave the EU here are quotes made last year to support the UK's membership of the EU:

"If Britain finally ended its “sterile debate” over Europe by leaving the EU,
it would quickly discover “that most of our problems are not caused by Brussels,
but by chronic British short-termism, inadequate management, sloth, low skills
and a culture of easy gratification and under-investment”.

The person who made this statement was (and still is) the Mayor of London. allthumbz

Best regards,
drinksallround



References:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/pa/article-2821188/EU-immigrant-tax-gain-revealed.html

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/nov/04/what-if-britain-left-the-eu-europe-politics-economy-culture

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Re: Is the EU really the road to nowhere?

Post by PennyandDerek on Wed Nov 05, 2014 11:02 pm

Like a lot of the statements made by both sides of the debate, the other side of the equation is "accidentally" missing.

A conservative number of, say, 400,000 EU immigrants over the ten year period contributing £20billion is really very marginal. The missing part of the equation in this case is the 400,000 existing population that could have filled those same jobs and their costs over the same period.

As you say, Boris put it very well.

"If Britain finally ended its “sterile debate” over Europe by leaving the EU,
it would quickly discover “that most of our problems are not caused by Brussels,
but by chronic British short-termism, inadequate management, sloth, low skills
and a culture of easy gratification and under-investment”.


We have to remember that immigration is purely a symptom of a far greater malaise.
This has been an accelerating process, stemming from the top, over many decades.

Derek
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Re: Is the EU really the road to nowhere?

Post by Dutto on Thu Nov 06, 2014 2:08 am

PennyandDerek wrote:.............. The missing part of the equation in this case is the 400,000 existing population that could have filled those same jobs and their costs over the same period.
...............
Hi there,

Many thanks.  I've been waiting for this one ever since this morning when a Government spokesman tried to counter the UCL report.  allthumbz

Like so many other elements of this debate, unlike the UCL report, it was all rhetoric with no figures being presented; so here are a few UK unemployment statistics to consider.

UK unemployment as a percentage of population was:

o  October 2008         6.1%

o  September 2011    8.4%

o  July 2014              6.0%

In the same period (2008 to 2014) the population of the UK has risen by +/- 2.7 million people so the falling employment percentage doesn't look as if immigrants are "stealing" jobs from UK residents; so how about the number of people who are unemployed.

The unemployment figures for the UK before it became an "immigration problem" are as follows:

o  1993  3.2 million out of a population of 57.25 million.

o  2003  1.52 million out of a population of 59.57 million.

o  2013  2.56 million out of a population of 64.1 million.

o  Today 2.02 million out of a population of ???

What these figures show is that even with an increasing population numbers of unemployed people has fallen; offering proof that unemployment is a function of economic status rather than a function of immigration.

So, there is nothing to indicate that the latest immigrants entering the UK are in any way "taking jobs" from UK citizens.

I request that anyone who thinks otherwise ask themselves "How can these immigrants come into the UK and find work?"  The answer is:

o  They are paid less than the minimum wage by their UK employers, or,

o  UK citizens are untrained or unable or unwilling to do the work that the immigrant is prepared to do, or.

o  The wages being paid to the immigrant are so low that UK citizens will not accept the work.

None of these reasons have anything to do with the UK being a member of the EU.  They are all down to the poor implementation of employment laws and/or poor governance right here in the UK.

This morning, the Government spokesman on TV also pointed out that a sudden influx of immigrants into a small area could overwhelm local facilities such as schools, hospitals, housing etc.

This is an undeniable fact, but not once did the spokesman point out that:

o  The EU Commission has a fund available to assist local councils to help them cope with these problems, and,

o  A similar sudden influx of UK citizens moving into an area to work would cause the same problems.

For example look at the impact of North Sea Oil on Shetland and its population:

o  In 1971     666 residents

o  1980      2,285 residents (approximate)

An increase of over 1,600 people 99% of whom were immigrants from the Scottish Mainland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland.  (if you think that these people weren't immigrants I suggest that you discuss the matter with a native of Shetland!) 

So what happened in Shetland?  The local people coped with the influx of immigrants, the infrastructure was developed to cope with the influx of immigrants, many of the immigrant workers stayed and are now assimilated into the local population and the development on which they came to work brought wealth to the island.

There is no reason why the current influx of EU immigrants into the UK should not have similar positive effects.

I rest my case. allthumbz

Best regards,
drinksallround



References:

uk unemployment figures

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10604117

http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/education/hist/employment/oil/section_d/page02.shtml

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Norway supports freedom of movement!

Post by Dutto on Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:18 pm

Hi there,

Well, a genuine "I didn't know that!" moment happened when watching the BBC 10 o'clock news tonight! wave wave wave 

The BBC reporter introduced an interview with the Prime Minister of Norway with the statement "Although Norway isn't a member of the EU it still allows the free movement of EU citizens into Norway."

In the ensuing interview the Prime Minister of Norway stated that the free movement of people within the EU was "essential".

Will there now be a change of heart with regard to immigration from all of those Forum members who have been extolling the virtues of Norway and demanding that the UK leaves the EU so that we can "be like Norway"?

I await the response. allthumbz

Best regards,
drinksallround

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Re: Is the EU really the road to nowhere?

Post by Dutto on Sat Nov 08, 2014 11:14 pm

Hi there,

Okay, I have waited 48 hours for one of the "let's be like Norway" group to respond; and I am still waiting!  Whistle1 Whistle1 

Not to worry.  Let's move on and resurrect the £1,700,000,000 bill from the EU that was announced last week.

For the moment, please forget the legality or otherwise of the EU bill because it is a separate argument and just consider the "renegotiation" that the UK government have announced today.

Just to reiterate:

1.  The UK was expected to pay a £1,700,000,000 bill to the EU by 1st December 2014.

2.  The UK was due a £1,000,000,000 rebate from the EU in 2015.

3.  The UK Prime Minister vowed he would not pay the EU bill by the due date and promised that the £1,700,000,000 "would be renegotiated".

Today the Chancellor of the Exchequer has declared that:

1.  The UK will pay only £850,000,000 (i.e. half of the bill) in early 2015.

2.  The rebate due to the UK from the EU in 2015 will be dropped by £850,000,000.

3.  The UK will not be liable to pay interest on the late payment.

I'm not much of a mathematician but as far as I can work out:

1.  Paying £850,000,000 and not receiving £850,000,000 adds up to £1,700,000,000; which is a sum of money that will not be in the UK Treasury.

2.  Not paying interest on the £850,000,000 not paid will be the same as not receiving interest on the £850,000,000 not received.

So, after all the rhetoric, lectern thumping and threats to leave the EU the UK government will pay the £1,700,000,000 bill demanded by the EU.

Does this mean that the UK government has accepted that the bill from the EU is not only legal but in line with previous agreements?

I can see no other reason for them to pay the bill if it isn't.

Best regards,
drinksallround

PS

When I started up in business I interviewed an accountant and asked him "What does one-plus-one equal?" and he replied "What do you want it to equal?"; so I employed his services immediately.  My compliments to Mike Robb in Aberdeen. up!


Reference:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29965113

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Today's EU News!

Post by Dutto on Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:59 am

Hi there,

Three Points Today:

One

Today, the Confederation of British Industry, (CBI), an organisation that represents the interests of 190,000 British businesses, announced that:

o  Leaving the EU would not be beneficial to the UK economy, and

o  Immigration was good for the UK economy.

The CBI re-confirmed a view that was published in an extensive paper about a year ago.


Two

Today the Prime Minister announced during his speech to the CBI that the UK was "securing more inward investment than the whole of the EU".

This was the same Prime Minister who:

"pledged his support for the UK steel industry ahead of the potential sale of Tata Steel's
Long Products division, including Scunthorpe steelworks."

Tata is an Indian company that took over British Steel after the company was privatised.  Tata is currently planning to sell the Scunthorpe steelworks to an American company.

Maybe the UK is "securing more inward investment than the whole of the EU" because the other members of the EU aren't selling their infrastructure and industries to foreign companies.

Ironically, also announced today was that the iconic building in the City of London known as "The Gherkin" has been sold to a Brazilian billionaire.

The old saying "He who pays the piper calls the tune." has never been more relevant than when looking at who owns what in the UK.

The sale of British industry, or landmarks such as The Gherkin, to foreign companies are not problems to be associated with EU membership.


Three

We have finally signed up to thirty-five EU justice measures, including the European Arrest Warrant!

The European Arrest Warrant was instigated in 2004 to make it easier to extradite criminals from the EU member states.  Like a UK arrest warrant, it has to be raised and ratified by the countries judicial system; but once raised an EAW is valid throughout the whole of the EU.

Remember how UK criminals moved to Spain and created what was known as "The Costa del Crime"?  They hid behind a wall of solicitors to avoid extradition and used every excuse in the book to stop being extradited back to the UK.  (Most of them had plenty of money remember!)

Now, the UK police can create a European Arrest Warrant and the police in all the other EU member states are duty bound to execute the warrant.

Conversely, if an EU criminal comes to the UK all it will take is for the foreign police to raise a EAW and the UK police can arrest him and have him on the next plane back home!

Yet another benefit of belonging to the EUallthumbz

Best regards,
drinksallround

References:

http://www.cbi.org.uk/media/2451423/our_global_future.pdf

http://www.scunthorpetelegraph.co.uk/Prime-Minister-David-Cameron-pledges-backing-UK/story-23350486-detail/story.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Arrest_Warrant

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Well, fancy that! The UK doesn't have to pay benefits to EU migrants.

Post by Dutto on Wed Nov 12, 2014 2:47 am

Hi there,

Seen the news today?

The EU Governments can deny benefits to jobless EU migrants.

So much for all the migrants coming to the UK just to collect benefits.  All the UK government has ever had to do is say "No!"

So, paying benefits to jobless EU migrants is not and never was an EU membership problem it is a UK government problem that can be resolved right here in the UK.

Oh, as a "by the way":

o  +/- 65,000 migrants are claiming benefits.  (Mainly in the form of Low-Income benefits.)

o  +/- 4,200,000 UK subjects are claiming benefits.  (Again, predominantly in the form of Low-Income benefits.)

Personally, I think it is time that we, the tax-payers, stopped subsidising businesses in the UK and ask that they pay their workers (be they EU migrants or UK nationals) a living wage; especially those companies that don't even bother to pay UK taxes!  (Which is yet again a UK government problem and not an EU membership problem.)

Best regards,
drinksallround

Reference:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/11/germany-deny-benefits-welfare-jobless-eu-migrants

BBC News

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Rosetta Probe Success!

Post by Dutto on Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:50 pm

Hi there,

I hope that everyone is happy that the Rosetta Probe has managed to put its lander on the surface of the comet it has been chasing. up! up!

A magnificent success for the European Space Agency (ESA)! up! up!

The ESA is yet another European collaborative effort supported by the EU as well the individual countries of Europe. allthumbz

Best regards,
drinksallround


Reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Space_Agency

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Re: Is the EU really the road to nowhere?

Post by Backtrax on Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:43 pm

We can certainly agree on that Ian.
A magnificent achievement.
I wonder if our cousins to the west are envious!
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Re: Is the EU really the road to nowhere?

Post by groundhog on Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:59 pm

That is twice this lifetime I have agreed with Ian, a magnificent achievement.

Meanwhile to add a little spice to the debate about how wonderful Europe is for us ( back on topic) I wonder if all the fishermen in North Devon who have caught their quota can look through their telescopes to see this fantastic sight rather than watch the Dutch and Belgian trawlers floating past catching all the fish in the Bristol Channel.

I am off now may be gone some time.... bye.... broomstick broomstick
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Short Term Memory?

Post by Dutto on Thu Nov 13, 2014 2:29 am

Hi there,

This Post is not "off topic" because the subject was raised as if it was an EU matter.

On Saturday, 25th October, included in my explanation of Foreign Aid was the following:

"In 1970 (three years before we joined the EU) the UK government entered into an agreement with other members of the United Nations (UN) that we would spend 0.7% of our Gross National Income on overseas aid. (The 0.7% figure was first put forward by the World Council of Churches in 1958.)

We actually achieved this target for the first time this year, after 44 years of failure."

Today, the UK Foreign Secretary (one of the four most senior positions within the UK government) rejected a Liberal Democrat plan to enshrine the UK's commitment to spend 0.7% of its GDP on foreign aid as "bizarre".

I appreciate that the Foreign Secretary was only three years old when the World Council of Churches proposed the 0.7% in 1958 ....

.... and that he was still a teenager when we entered into the agreement with the other members of the UN in 1970 ....

.... but surely it is not "bizarre" to want the promise of 0.7% of GDP to be enshrined in UK law when ....

.... for the very first time in forty-four years the UK has achieved the 0.7% promised to the UN in 1970.

The Foreign Secretary is reported as saying ....

"There is no need for a new law because the Government is already spending 0.7 per cent, which is a United Nations target."

.... but he failed to mention that it was for the first time in forty-four years! Whistle1 Whistle1


Best regards,
drinksallround

http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2013/mar/20/uk-aid-spend-important-works

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11227503/Law-to-protect-foreign-aid-rejected-by-Foreign-Secretary-Philip-Hammond.html

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Re: Is the EU really the road to nowhere?

Post by CC on Sat Nov 15, 2014 12:56 pm

As the initiator of this thread I'm sorry it's caused so much controversy... I was genuinely interested in the fors and againsts of leaving the EU but as with today's politicians most of the information, facts and figures have gone straight over my head!

I'ts a shame issues like this can't be discussed without members calling for topics to be removed because it doesn't gratify their own beliefs. Or because it's too political, which personally I don't see.

Reluctantly I will now lock this thread, but in future please familiarise yourself with the fact this area is a 'Discussion Lounge' and its placed within the 'Community Forum' you are not forced to either read or participate in discussion except by your own choice.

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