Pug Boxer timing belt and injector pump.

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Pug Boxer timing belt and injector pump.

Post by bikeralw on Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:13 am

I decided to have the original timing belt changed on my 2004 Nuevo (Pug Boxer LX SWB 2 litre HDI) earlier this week. I've had conflicting advice over this. As it's only done 44,000 miles I was told it wasn't due yet, but I thought at ten years old it was better to be on the safe side and get it changed. Am I over cautious?
As an aside, when away last month I noticed an odd drip of diesel on the ground whenever I parked up. When the mechanic took the shrouds off to change the timing belt he found the leak was coming from the injector pump, so a recon pump had to be fitted... I now only have one kidney... so_sad I would have thought 44k was a very short life for an injector pump. I thought these vans were designed to do half a million miles. Is it because motorhomes tend to be laid up in cold weather, prompting condensation and rust in the pump inner workings?
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Re: Pug Boxer timing belt and injector pump.

Post by daisy mae on Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:58 pm

I don`t know anything about the injector pump sorry , on my VW clubman I had the cam belt changed at just over   10,000 miles it had 9,070 when I bought it last October and as it was ten years old I wanted to make sure it was ok.
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Re: Pug Boxer timing belt and injector pump.

Post by jt2011 on Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:41 pm

Peugeot recommend 10 years or 100,000 whichever comes first.

Haven't heard of changing injector pump.

Some models recommend changing the water pump. VW T4's say up to 5 years between timing belt changes and do the water pump at the same time as they're not expensive and easy to change while everything else is off.

I think 10 years is too long in my opinion.

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Re: Pug Boxer timing belt and injector pump.

Post by boxerman on Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:12 pm

Don't want to appear argumentative but if Peugeot say 10 years or 100,000 then you can bet that they have covered their backs and the belt would be servicable for many miles after that.
With all due respect, I think Peugeot know more about their engines than the ordinary man (or dealer) on the street.

44k for an injector pump seems a ridiculously short lifespan though. I know that internal corrosion can ruin them, perhaps bad fuel and / or filters in its previous life?

Frank
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Re: Pug Boxer timing belt and injector pump.

Post by bikeralw on Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:18 pm

They also changed my water pump at the same time, less than £20. I don't know if it's the case with the HDI engine, but usually the belt is tensioned by pivoting the water pump which seals to the engine block with a big O ring. Once disturbed it's almost impossible to get a water tight seal again, hence a new water pump is required.
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Re: Pug Boxer timing belt and injector pump.

Post by modelman on Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:37 am

Unless you bought your van new, it might have been miss-fuelled in the past.
Many years ago I put petrol into one of my diesel Transit vans, only did about 1/2 mile before stopping, all drained & flushed through with new diesel, all was well for about 3 months when the diesel-pump failed???
Diesel fuel being an oil, lubricates it, the petrol allowed it to run 'dry' for a while, this not only screwed the internals, but also dried/hardened the vital seals.

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Re: Pug Boxer timing belt and injector pump.

Post by bikeralw on Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:32 pm

That thought had crossed my mind, but when I bought the van, second owner, it had only covered 16K, the fuel only started to weep out 17K later at 43K, never a problem till then.
But talking to the mechanic, he said you wouldn't believe the number of diesel injector pumps they're having to change over these last few years.
Now maybe this is because diesel vehicles are now so much more popular, or is there something more sinister, like UK fuel not having the additives in it that it used to have.
One thing I know for sure, my van both runs better and is more economic when touring abroad than here.


Last edited by bikeralw on Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Pug Boxer timing belt and injector pump.

Post by jt2011 on Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:13 pm

boxerman wrote:Don't want to appear argumentative but if Peugeot say 10 years or 100,000 then you can bet that they have covered their backs and the belt would be servicable for many miles after that.
With all due respect, I think Peugeot know more about their engines than the ordinary man (or dealer) on the street.

44k for an injector pump seems a ridiculously short lifespan though. I know that internal corrosion can ruin them, perhaps bad fuel and / or filters in its previous life?

Frank


I'm not so sure that Peugeot know better.

Due to the nature of motorhomes many only do less than 1000 miles a year and sit idle for long periods.

I've seen belts on 6 to 8 year old vehicles considerably perished and cracked.

I know its a small percentage risk to not change belts but a lot of people like the peace of mind and change ahead of the 10 year intervals.

Many customers over the years have been happy to pay extra rather than wait 10 years, its all down to an individuals own opinion, there is no right or wrong.

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Re: Pug Boxer timing belt and injector pump.

Post by inspiredron on Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:43 pm

bikeralw wrote:One thing I know for sure, my van both runs better and is more economic when touring abroad than here.
Less traffic means more constant speed. The greatest use of fuel is acceleration, however gentle. The second greatest fuel user is hill climbing.
BTW - 43K - 16K is 27K not 17K!


Last edited by inspiredron on Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:45 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : arithmetic!)

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Re: Pug Boxer timing belt and injector pump.

Post by -mojo- on Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:17 pm

bikeralw wrote:is there something more sinister, like UK fuel not having the additives in it that it used to have.

When I owned a Transit diesel I was told that the pumps on older diesels are more prone to failure on the current "low sulphur" fuel because the sulphur compounds used to act as a lubricant. I was advised to dose the fuel with a small amount of low ash 2-stroke oil, and did so for most of the 8 years that I owned it. In financial terms it was almost a no-cost treatment, as if you buy 2T oil in largish quantities it's hardly any more expensive than diesel fuel!
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Re: Pug Boxer timing belt and injector pump.

Post by Bartfarst on Sat Aug 02, 2014 5:40 pm

bikeralw wrote:They also changed my water pump at the same time, less than £20. I don't know if it's the case with the HDI engine, but usually the belt is tensioned by pivoting the water pump which seals to the engine block with a big O ring. Once disturbed it's almost impossible to get a water tight seal again, hence a new water pump is required.

Bikeralw,

Just for your information, the cam belt is tensioned by rotating one of the idler wheels, not the water pump. Nevertheless, I strongly recommend that the water pump be changed when you do the belt, as indeed you have done. False economy to do otherwise.

There's been loads of (sometimes heated) discussion on cam belts on this forum, principally on the following thread : http://www.autosleeper-ownersforum.com/t5925-cam-belt-must-be-time-to-replace I suspect of all the 'amateurs' on this forum, I've possibly looked into this matter in the greatest depth and I'd recommend that anyone contemplating having their 2.0HDi belt changed should read this link fully. The key issue is that your average garage mechanic's 'quarter twist' rule of thumb as to how to determine the correct belt tension is not appropriate for this engine and, unless a garage has the instruments to carry out the specified two-stage tightening process, then stay away and find someone else who does. Otherwise you can't guarantee that you'll get either a quiet running belt or the full specified life. If your belt is noisy or 'honking' then that's a clear sign of excessive tension and it's time to have another go at getting it right. If the tension is too low then you might jump a tooth.

As for the high pressure fuel pump leaking, I've had a number of HDis and never experienced this to any significant degree. I'd check that it's not running from one of the unions. Fuel at 2000 bar will find the slightest weakness!

Hope this helps.

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Re: Pug Boxer timing belt and injector pump.

Post by boxerman on Sat Aug 02, 2014 6:06 pm

Bartfarst wrote:
There's been loads of (sometimes heated) discussion on cam belts on this forum, principally on the following thread : http://www.autosleeper-ownersforum.com/t5925-cam-belt-must-be-time-to-replace

Which reminds me, have you written that app for me to tesion my belt with my mobile phone yet? You promised  hugegrins 

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Re: Pug Boxer timing belt and injector pump.

Post by Bartfarst on Sat Aug 02, 2014 6:16 pm

Frank,

No need Frank: there's loads of Android apps available for audio signal analysis/Fourier analysis of the plucked belt. All you need are the first stage and second stage resonant frequencies which, I think, I provided in the other thread.

Let me know how you get on!

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Re: Pug Boxer timing belt and injector pump.

Post by bikeralw on Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:58 pm

Thanks for that link Bartfarst, will digest.
I'm confident the garage that carried out the timing belt change have done it by the book.
The fuel leak wasn't coming from the unions, I checked daily when I first noticed the problem. I wound tissue round the unions and there was never a trace of diesel.
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Re: Pug Boxer timing belt and injector pump.

Post by Bartfarst on Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:15 pm

With apologies again for resurrecting an old thread, in August 2014 I said:

"As for the high pressure fuel pump leaking, I've had a number of HDis and never experienced this to any significant degree. I'd check that it's not running from one of the unions. Fuel at 2000 bar will find the slightest weakness!"

Well, you've guessed it, after 10 years and 70,000 miles, the Bosch CP1 high pressure pump on my 2.0HDi has started leaking! It appears to be coming from beneath one of the three cylinder heads on the pump and, as the local Diesel specialist has advised me, it seems to be worse when cold. However as the specialist warned and I have observed, Diesel dripping from the pump on a 2.0HDi engine runs straight into the back end of the alternator and, with the potential to wreck the slip rings/brushes. Coincidence or not that I've had two alternators fail in the last four years?

Anyway, having thought that I'd never have to remove the cam belt and all that again, that's exactly what I'm now trying to do. And it's no easier than the first or subsequent times I did it either!

I've been quoted £125+VAT to have my pump refurbished with new seals etc. so that's what I'll be doing as soon as I can get the darn thing off: got to make two special tools to remove the sprocket from the pump for a start.

All work I didn't really want this close to Easter....and it was running so well too!


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Re: Pug Boxer timing belt and injector pump.

Post by dandywarhol on Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:10 pm

Change intervals for the T4 is 48 months. Peugeot should know their stuff but I too find 10 years is stretching it (if you'll pardon the pun)

Neither VW or Pug make timing belts and its highly likely that the same manufactured by either Continental or Gates, so a difference of 6 years seems strange

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Re: Pug Boxer timing belt and injector pump.

Post by Bartfarst on Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:34 pm

I changed the cam belt for a Gates one, all set up correctly using an STT-1, and that was only about 6000 miles back. The 10 years/70,000 miles relates to the injection pump.

Well I've now got the cam belt off and I'm now trying to remove the sprocket from the high pressure pump. What a job! I made a special tool to hold the sprocket whilst I got the nut off - worked second time so that was OK. Now I need to break the taper between sprocket and pump shaft for which I need to make a second special tool: easy according to Haynes. The problem is that the holes in the sprocket are not M6 or M8 i.e. standard, mainstream threads, but M7! Who the hell uses M7? No one! So the job goes into day 2 still with the HP pump in place. Watch this space!

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Re: Pug Boxer timing belt and injector pump.

Post by dandywarhol on Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:25 pm

Manufacturers who don't want folks taking the pump apart use M7  biggrin

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Re: Pug Boxer timing belt and injector pump.

Post by Bartfarst on Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:33 pm

I thought the same way dandywarhol! There's someone in PSA grinning from on high!

Truth is it's not even to take the pump apart, just to remove the pump from the vehicle. Joe Average, Independent Mechanic is going to be similarly inconvenienced sans the PSA special tool.

Getting the pump apart actually requires a load of large Torx drive bits from what I can see which, apparently, are hellish tight. I'll be leaving that to the profs.

Loved the DW10 engine, until today!
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